Welcome And What Comes After

Tom Mueller 0:08

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a Crisis Podcast. I'm Tom Mueller. Thanks for joining us again this week. If you'd like to email the show, drop me a line at Tom at LeadingInacrisis.com. And always love to hear from you, our loyal listeners out there. On our show today, we are going to take a little bit different look at organizations that go through crisis. And the question we're asking is what happens after the crisis? What about cultural repair or the disruption, the chaos can plague with a company? And we're going to talk about how you deal with that in an effective way with our guest today. And that guest is Natalie Holder. Now, Natalie is an employment attorney by trade, um, but is also a culture strategist, which is a new term for me. So we'll talk about that a little bit, Natalie, and founder of a company called Culture Repair, where she helps companies that have been through major disruptions to troubleshoot and reset culture and organizations. Hey Natalie, welcome to the program.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Thank you, Thomas. My pleasure to be with you today.

Natalie’s Zigzag Path To Culture

Tom Mueller 1:30

Hey, Natalie, tell our listeners a little bit about your background and history and you know what got you to this point of starting your own company and focusing on this kind of unusual um job.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

So as we talk about career ladders, mine was more like the career zigzag. Do you remember that game shoots and ladders? That's what my career and many other careers kind of look like today, right? Where you take the escalation, but then there's some descent and then there's some lateral moves. And, you know, I'll tell you in all of the work that I did, you know, in the space of looking at workplaces, in the space of either being the attorney who was representing the government and making sure that the employment laws were being, you know, properly followed with you know within workplaces, or whether I was representing a plaintiff who was the employee in a workplace who felt as though their employment rights and responsibilities were being violated, or whether I was representing the company who felt as though they were defending the work that they did in terms of making sure that they were making sure that the employment laws were being properly administered. In all of those different spaces, you always had someone who was in crisis, someone who was suffering, someone who was in pain. And I'll admit that was always what left me. No matter whether or not we reached a settlement, no matter whether or not there was a judgment in favor of one party or the other, particularly the party that I was representing, there was always that feeling of there's something more that could and needs to happen. You know, I'll I'll tell you, whenever I read about these massive employment law, you know, judgments, these, you know, settlements or the judgments and where people are getting millions of dollars, I always think about the story underneath that settlement. And where this was someone who, for months and sometimes years, may have had sleepless, sleepless nights because they weren't sure how it was going to turn out. This was someone who may have been on antidepressants, I'll tell you. 80% of my clients when I represented plaintiffs were on Lexapro. And this is someone who doesn't know if they're ever going to work again. And so these are the stories that I must admit really do sit with me. Because even when I'm representing the employer, I'm still saying to myself, is there a way to make sure that we are representing our people, that we are creating an environment and where our people don't go down this path? So I'm that very um, you know, unique HR and employment law professional who believes that look, if you're taking care of your people, you're taking care of the company.

Tom Mueller 4:18

Yeah, you know, the the whole employment law piece is just is fascinating to me because uh, you know, everything just seems relative depending on which side of the table you're sitting on, right? And um, it's given the broader sort of cultural um divisions that we have out there, all of that stuff just kind of works its way into the workplace. And you know, seemingly innocent interactions can be interpreted differently by different people. Next thing you know, we're talking to Natalie Holder about uh fixing a problem we have here. So it's it's pretty chaotic out there. Um, and you know, God bless everybody working in in a big corporate uh eight or agency today. Uh, there's so many opportunities. But Natalie, let's talk about um some of your experiences

The Aftermath Employees Still Carry

Tom Mueller 5:15

now. You've you know been doing this a while, but uh tell me when an organization, a large organization, goes through a major crisis, and you know it's disruptive, obviously, by nature, crisis is that, but you you're kind of peeking in the aftermath of that, when the the fire trucks are gone, the media have moved on, and now the employees are there, management's there, maybe it's new management or some new management. What's what do you do in that situation? What's your what's your role in getting in there?

SPEAKER_00 5:57

So the kind of crises that you're talking about are the big explosive types and where they're making the front page news, they're on the the you know, television media. However, there are so many other micro crises that are happening in organizations. And so I'll address everything and in between. You know, not every crisis makes it into the media. A crisis might be that there's been a complaint, and as a result, there was an investigation and there was a finding. And as a result, there's now been you know some sort of remediation. And a lot of times organizations will think, well, and that remediation point, like you said, after the you know, fire trucks leave, after the news trucks leave, many organizations feel like, look, we went through the remediation, we fired someone, we're coaching someone, we have gotten new management. What they fail to realize is that their people are still somewhat fearful that the organizational culture that allowed that initial crisis to occur may still exist. And so it's important to make sure that as leaders, that you're tapping into and understanding what are the eight indicators, what are the eight warning signs that your culture is unhealthy? And so this is where I work with organizations to help them to understand, yes, you've just gotten out of a crisis, but let's make sure you don't get back into another one. And so it's making sure that they understand that there are these indicators that let you know on the front end, hey, these are areas where if you're not paying attention to them, they could come back and they could resurface. I remember years ago when I served as um, you know, uh a member of the global HR compliance team of you know, a global uh hospitality organization, over 100,000 employees. The job was to conduct investigations, to make recommendations around uh, you know, personnel and staff after the uh investigation. It was to feel complaints and you know there were hundreds that would come in. And I remember one in particular in where uh you know we got a complaint from one of uh our properties in Atlanta, Georgia, that there was uh a general manager who was very who isn't who quote unquote wasn't treating her people right. It's a basic complaint. So what does that mean? Was there a violation of policy, law? You don't know. So that's where you have to dig. That's where you have to start asking the better questions. And so after, you know, initial, a few initial conversations, we said, yeah, this is something that requires a little bit more attention. And upon interviewing a number of the GM staff, we found that this was a GM who was engaging in what I would call the kind of leadership that denigrates as opposed to elevates. She felt as though she would inspire her people by saying things like, you know, my four-year-old nephew can read better than you. Uh, you know, she was not in a space in where she was inspiring her people. And so as a result, you know, the recommendation was this is someone who's not living up to our values. This is someone who's violating our code of conduct when it comes to respect and the values and virtues that we held as a company as being important. Well, yes, that GM was, you know, literally and figuratively escorted out of the building and you know, new management came in. A few months after, I had the chance to run into one of the employees who had worked at that hotel when that GM was uh as was their leader. And I thought that this person would have been, you know, all smiles and happy that there's new leadership, that everything is fine. However, the person shared, yeah, you know, so far the new leader seems to be, you know, um, a breath of fresh air. But leadership failed the first time. Is it possible that they will the second time? And so this is really where it's important to make sure that you're not just simply as an organization assuming that everything is okay just because everything at the leadership level has been quote unquote fixed. It's important to make sure that your people are assessed to making sure that you're understanding what they need in that moment in order for them to move from fear to really functioning. Because no one can truly innovate if they're scared. No one can really innovate and feel as though they are going to be able to contribute meaningfully to an organization. And so this is really the work of culture repair.

Coach Or Cut The High Performer

Tom Mueller 10:23

Okay, well, it's fascinating. Um, because well, a couple things there. First, you know, you've got an experienced employee general manager. Is there some remediation you can do for that individual to try and turn them around to keep all that value that you've created in them as an employee? And I guess there's just a value judgment taken at that point, right? That we've got to make a big change here. But do you ever see examples where, you know, hey, let's put this person into coaching, let's see if we can do that?

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Absolutely, because like you said, you've invested so much time, energy, and sometimes money into building this talent. And sometimes that talent is very unique. I remember um, you know, one of my clients was uh an entertainment company, and they had a designer who was just phenomenal. But this designer engaged in behavior that was, let's just say, quite unsavory. They had a Halloween costume that offended people. So the person came into work one day, Halloween, everyone's dressed up in their favorite costume, and this person came in dressed as a pimp. And this didn't, you know, fly over very well with you know this person's staff. So remember, we're talking about a creative space, but at the same time, we're talking about the workplace. And that's a thing I think many people misunderstand when they're thinking, well, we're creatives, we can do what we want. Actually, no, you can't. Because once again, there are our employment laws which serve as the basis and the floor upon which we can grow and develop our cultures. And so, you know, with this person who you know decides to choose this costume, on the other end of the spectrum, this person was designing incredible costumes for this talent, for the star. And the decision was made that they didn't want to get rid of this person. But the question is, how do we coach and how do we, you know, once again engage in their level of cultural repair? And so it was a matter of having conversations with this individual, helping this individual understand what went wrong, how they went wrong, uh, how they were impacting the people that they were working with, understanding what does this person want out of their relationship with their co, you know, with their colleagues? Because that's really the question, right? If this is a person who just doesn't even see or have the awareness of how they were impacting their fellow co-workers, the question now really becomes is this someone who's salvageable? But this is someone who really was remorseful, you know, made an error in bad judgment and really wanted to move forward. But on the other end of the spectrum, it was important not to gloss over the feelings that the people who had been impacted were feeling. It was important to make sure to have the focus groups with them to understand what it would look like to rebuild this culture. It was make it important to make sure that everyone had a, you know, a basic understanding of what does civility look like in this workplace? You know, a lot of times I'm brought in just to provide compliance training, consent decree ordered compliance training, and where it's really as simple as helping people understand what are our employment laws from Title VII to the Americans with Disabilities Act, and what are your responsibilities when it comes to making sure that you're following these laws and respecting your coworkers and your colleagues. And so it happens, but like I said, there are the instances where the professional that you're talking about really is not going to make the seed change that is really needed in order to comport with what the organization feels is valuable.

Tom Mueller 14:08

Okay. But you know, it's it's a great example there, Natalie. Um, just the pimp costume. Because it's, you know, I hear that and I'm thinking, oh wow, that would be creative to kind of do that and uh and that. But where where does where does the line get crossed there? And you know, for organizations, how do you know for managers who want to be expressive, be part of the team, you know, be engaged? How do you know where that line is?

SPEAKER_00 14:38

And

Where The Line Is For Leaders

SPEAKER_00 14:39

that's the reason why I think it's so important for organizations to make sure that they invest in some level of compliance training for their leaders and their managers. Because as a leader and manager, if I am a designer, I'm not going to be an expert in employment laws, and nor should you be an expert. But as a leader and as a manager, you have a duty to make sure that you understand where that law, where that line is and understanding when the line is crossed. Because if you don't, you are now creating a great deal of liability for your company. As a leader, as a manager, you are considered to be an agent of your organization, meaning that anything that you learn about, anything that you know about, the company is deemed to know about. And so, you know, in the past, I've had you know leaders who decided they didn't want to get involved when they heard that there was a dispute or that there was, you know, potential bullying between two employees. They didn't want to get involved. Why? Because it's a dispute amongst two adults. Guess what? If that bullying becomes and surfaces to a state where it now becomes discriminatory or harassing, you as the employer, you as the company could be considered liable for that inability and that failure to resolve that issue or to intervene where necessary. So, you know, going back to the pimp, I mean, quite honestly, it's as simple as looking at human trafficking and how seriously we're taking that as a as a society. You know, pimps are the representation, the the ether, like they're they're the essence of what you think about when we're talking about human trafficking. And so while it's somewhat uh, you know, while it has somewhat been sensationalized in our media and you know, it's a figure that people have played around with, we're talking about the sale of people, we're talking about the abuse of people. And so that's really where I think an organizational leader, if you are a manager who doesn't know where that line is, invest in having the compliance training so that you at least have the essential information to not only protect your company, but to protect yourself. You know, Tom, I've worked for three CEOs who all were asked to step down in disgrace. They all were able to resign, but they resigned under circumstances that were somewhat embarrassing. And quite honestly, all three of those CEOs, they were CEOs who failed to engage in culture repair and most importantly to identify and even do something when the eight warning signals that their organizational cultures were unhealthy, they failed to do something about it. And so that's why it's so important, and I can't say this enough, Tom, for leaders to invest in that training.

Tom Mueller 17:31

So

Warning Signs And Killing The Messenger

Tom Mueller 17:32

you've mentioned uh the um eight um sort of warning signs there. What uh walk us through those or give us a praisis on on those. How do you what what is what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Absolutely. So when I think about the eight indicators of a broken workplace, I mean, I think about it in terms of being able to diagnose that which may be ailing your company, what's infecting your company? And the good thing is that it's an indicator, so it means it can be fixed. It's just kind of like when your car has like that warning indicator light that comes on. If you pay attention to that light and you actually are, you know, aggressive and you're proactive in figuring out why is this light on? How do I turn it off? How do I make sure that I'm getting to the root cause? You could save yourself a lot of money, a lot of time, and a lot of damage. Failure to do so. We know it happens. And so, similar to the workplace, you know, one indicator that comes up for me. Um, you know, I'm of course not going to run through all eight of them, but I will give you, you know, an example of one of the indicators that you know comes to mind. It's how we sometimes kill the message with the messenger. So in organizations in where we have really good ideas that come about, but it's a question of who's brought the idea to us. That will determine just how seriously we take the information. So I served as the chief diversity officer for the U.S. Capitol Police. And in that role, my job, my remit was to help the organization to balance the tension between being an organization that was founded in 1828 with the changing times of our Capitol complex. So the US Capitol Police, their mission is to protect the U.S. Capitol Complex, which includes the physical space as well as the people who are entering it. So that's your Congress, those are your visitors, those are your employees. And so the role oftentimes, I'd often hear, well, it's always been done this way. This is the way we do it. It's always been done this way. And so I'd often have to shake people awake and say, okay, it's always been done that way, but look at what's happening around you. You have very new and different Congress members coming in. While I was there, our first Sikh officer who sought the religious accommodation to wear a turban with his uniform was granted. We had the, you know, we had the first woman speaker of the house at the time that I was there. Who's gonna walk Nancy Pelosi to the restroom if you don't have officers who can go into a woman's restroom? Are you are you following? And you know, we also had you know the squad that was elected while I was there. Um, AOC became a force while I was there. And so there was this new wave of you know uh energy in the Capitol. So you have to keep up with that if you are going to protect and serve the Capitol complex. Well, we had an we had a lieutenant who had this brilliant idea. So understand, Tom, people always came to me with brilliant ideas. Some of them I had to like, you know, really figure out how do I massage this. Others, I thought, all right, you know, there's really something that we could do here. So we had a lieutenant who had this brilliant idea of bringing in peer support. So we had an employee assistance program, and many companies have an EAP. Our EAP had maybe about 5% of our workforce using it. This lieutenant said that's a staggeringly low number given that so many of our officers are grappling with all different kinds of things in life. And peer support is that mechanism by where you're getting coaching and counseling and guidance from someone who is also sworn, someone who also understands what it is like to have your marriage in shambles because you're working long hours, because that spouse doesn't know whether or not you're gonna come home that night, um, you know, due to what might happen on the job. It's someone who understands the pressures and the anxieties that might come along with law enforcement. And I said, you know, this sounds like a kernel of a good idea. Let's really workshop this. And so I Went so we went through a number of different agencies. We had meetings with places like the State Department, um, other you know, law enforcement agencies to really understand how they stand up their uh peer support program. And after a few months of real intense research, and I had to give her a lot of credit for doing a lot of the line share of the work on this. I said, I think you're ready to present this to the executive team. You're ready to present this to the chief to get the buy-in. Within the first 30 seconds, I could tell that this meeting was not going to go as I had expected. I could see the eyes rolling, I could see the deep inhales, I could see the looks into the, you know, into the uh the beyonder. And I couldn't understand why her idea wasn't being embraced. And so after the meeting, I went to someone who had institutional knowledge about the organization. She'd been there for like 40 years. And I said, Hey, we pitched this idea. What happened? Tell me, where did where did we go wrong? And she said, Well, who was the lieutenant? And I named the lieutenant, she chuckled and said, That idea was dead on arrival. There was no way they were going to work with this lieutenant on this initiative. They don't like her. And so, under the concept of reactive devaluation, it is a human process in where if we don't like a person, we have a higher likelihood of not liking or trusting them. And as a result, their ideas and their contributions. And so, an idea that really could have been game-changing for us before January 6th could have been implemented and been there as a resource. Now, mind you, after January 6th, it became painfully obvious that we needed to have some sort of that we needed to have peer support, that we needed a better mechanism for meeting the mental health and well-being of the officers. And I'll tell you, when they implemented the peer support after January 6th, it was painfully obvious that they did not consult with this lieutenant in standing up this initiative. When I saw the room that they placed the peer support professional into, it was a room, an office that had a door, and the doorknob was missing from the door. So there was a hole the size of my fist in that door. So if you walked by the office, you could see who was in there. You could see who was getting peer support. You could look inside the office and see who was getting peer support. I'll tell you one thing about most people, and especially people in law enforcement privacy is huge. You don't want people knowing your inner details, your inner vulnerabilities. And I thought to myself, this is this is what happens when we kill the messenger as well as their message.

Tom Mueller 24:43

Yeah. So in your estimation, was that a a sabotage move to do that, or was that just somebody not really understanding the importance of anonymity and privacy here?

SPEAKER_00 25:00

I think it was the third. I think it really was sheer ignorance. I really think it was a matter of not having a well-vetted process and not going to the experts on this. So basically cobbling something in, you know, in real time, which I think was done with earnest. And I think it was done with, you know, um an interest in really trying to make a difference, a positive interest, um, you know, impact on the agency. But at the same time, it really was a matter of not knowing the best practices for implementing a project. And you had a subject matter expert right there who could have assisted.

Tom Mueller 25:46

Okay.

HR Investigations And Ignored Processes

Tom Mueller 25:47

Good, great example there, Natalie. Thanks for sharing that. You know, as you're talking through this and thinking about investigations that that accompany a lot of the type of situations we're talking about here, this often falls to the HR teams. And so I'm curious your take on, you know, how well prepared are most HR teams to run an internal investigation on a situation that might be developing in the company?

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Really depends. It depends on how much has been invested in the human resources department. Just this morning I was reading, uh, so every morning I look through the you know most recent updates with the EEOC and with uh you know uh cases that are happening in the employment loss, employment law landscape. And I was just reading about a restaurant that decided to get rid of their whole HR team like five years ago. And as a result, they have had uh you know huge reputationally damaging um situation in where there's just no one there to address employee concerns. And as a result, this company has now made you know the news for not the right reasons. That being said, you have other companies on the spectrum in where they've invested a lot of you know time and effort in finding the right people to be in the space of being a fact finder. Uh, you know, I'll admit when I was in hospitality, uh, Starwood Hotels and Resorts, they had a trifecta system in where it wasn't just human resources, it was human resources working with audit, working with legal. And so all three of these departments were completely aligned to make sure that we were all asking the right questions and we all had the right resources. So I think it's a matter of looking at how much has been invested in that HR department. Who are the people, what are the credentials of the people who are in that department? And what capability do they have to make sure that they can properly, number one, identify when a matter needs to be investigated. Is there a policy or is there a law that's been violated? And also, do they have the right practices for doing so?

Tom Mueller 28:03

Okay, well, that in my experience would be pretty tricky for most HR teams. Um, large organizations such as you've worked for, you know, can bring those resources in. Um, smaller companies or um, you know, who maybe aren't as focused on compliance issues and just getting payroll out and hiring and firing and all the run-of-the-mill let's keep this place operating duties, um, you know, that's a more than a full-time load these days for folks. So you toss an investigation or some kind of a you know a complaint in on top of that, um, it uh it gets more and more interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

And I'll tell you, it really becomes expensive, though, on the back end. So the other indicator of an unhealthy workplace, it's ignored processes. When organizations don't have processes that they are paying attention to, they will eventually catch up to you. And so I'll tell you, as someone who used to work for the government, I was the person who represented truth and justice when it came to our employment laws. The number one thing I would look for when I would receive a complaint and I'd receive the response from the company, I'm looking for where was the process deviated? Where was a process ignored? Where was it that one person would have been treated differently than the other? Because those kinds of inconsistencies often lead to the root of how and what how and whether or not there really was a violation of a policy, procedure, or the law.

Tom Mueller 29:40

Yeah, and that makes great sense. Okay.

How To Reach Natalie And Wrap

Tom Mueller 29:44

Hey Natalie, if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Way to reach out to me is through my website, Natalie Holderspeaks.com. So my first and last name, speaks.com.

Tom Mueller 29:57

Okay. And are you Natalie the traditional spelling?

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Yeah.

Tom Mueller 30:02

Natalie.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Yes, no H.

Tom Mueller 30:06

Or double E's.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

No.

Tom Mueller 30:10

All right. Uh Natalie Holder, culture warrior with the restoration focus here. Thanks for joining us on the podcast today. It's been a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

It has been, Tom. Thank you for have for hosting me.

Tom Mueller 30:23

That's gonna do it for this episode of Leading in a Crisis Podcast. Hey, once again, if you'd like to email the show, drop me a line at Tom at Leadinginacrisis.com. And we look forward to seeing you again for another episode. Take care.