The Leading in a Crisis Podcast
What really happens when a crisis hits an organization—and how technology is influencing decisions and reputation impacts. Come hear what happened when experienced leaders were actually in the middle of a crisis—and capture the lessons before it happens to you. Email the show at Tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
Your host, Tom Mueller, is a veteran crisis manager and trainer with more than 30 years in the corporate communications and crisis fields. Tom currently works as an executive coach and crisis trainer with WPNT Communications, and as a contract public information officer and trainer through his personal company, Tom Mueller Communications LLC.
Our goal is to help you grow your knowledge and awareness so you can be better prepared to lead should a major crisis threaten your organization.
Music credit: Special thanks to Nick Longoria from Austin, Texas for creating the theme music for the podcast.
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The Leading in a Crisis Podcast
Attacked by media, politicians, and activists: policing through civil unrest and disinformation
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Minneapolis didn’t need another spark, but leadership rarely gets to choose the timing of the next crisis. We sit down with former Minneapolis police chief Brian O’Hara to unpack what it’s like to lead when unrest feels one headline away, when staffing is thin, and when the smallest incident can cascade into something much bigger.
We get specific about crisis leadership and crisis communication: how to be honest about limited resources without sounding helpless, how to show up early and often so people know who is accountable, and how to separate facts from unknowns in a way that builds credibility. Brian also walks us through the realities of media relations under constant scrutiny, where speed pressures accuracy, narratives harden fast, and a single misstep can erase months of trust.
From there, we zoom out to leadership lessons any executive can use: why presence is powerful, why listening matters when you come in as an outsider, and how the gap between expectations and reality becomes the breeding ground for frustration. Brian also reflects on the human cost of performative politics, the weight leaders carry after tragedy, and the challenge of maintaining resilience when work-life balance simply is not available. We close by returning to the ICE surge and the operational chaos of mass protests, emphasizing the balancing act of protecting lawful protest while preventing the one or two bad actors from tipping everything into destruction.
If you found this helpful, subscribe for more conversations on crisis management and leadership under pressure, share the episode with someone who leads people in tough moments, and leave a review so others can find the show.
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We'd love to hear from you. Email the show at Tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
Welcome And Minneapolis Backdrop
Tom MuellerHi everyone, and welcome back to the Leading in a Crisis Podcast. On this podcast, we talk all things leadership and crisis management. I'm Tom Mueller. On this episode, we're continuing our conversation with former Minneapolis police chief Brian O'Hara. Now, Brian was the most recently was police chief in the city of Minneapolis here in the United States. Prior to that, he served as a public safety officer and working in municipal government in New Jersey for about 20 years or so. So he brings deep experience in municipal government, uh local policing issues, which of course is one of the things that attracted him to this job in Minneapolis.
Preventing Another Unrest Flashpoint
Tom MuellerSo, Chief, what was your your your sort of biggest fear as you were rolling into this, particularly with the ICE enforcement? It just felt like you just didn't really have control over what was happening.
Chief Brian O'HaraYeah, well, you know, like we mentioned, it was a constant state where we were on edge um 24 hours a day for a few weeks. That the next spark might be what lights diffuse to cause 2020 all over again. And we know we touched on lightly sort of these extreme ideologies that everybody knows we have in this country today. And it just it felt like for months that there were some folks on the extreme left that were so engaged with this in a way that maybe they didn't care what it took to fight ice on the street. Maybe they didn't care if it caused the city to burn down. That was a real fear I had. And another real fear I had was maybe there's some folks in charge in Washington that are kind of hoping for the same thing. Like they wouldn't mind if Minneapolis burns down again either. And so my biggest fear was that somebody here might get their way. Uh, and then just the incredible path and cycle of destruction that that would cause over and over again, because we know people had lost their lives over what happened in the aftermath of 2020.
Tom MuellerYeah, and the hype that comes along with this when you get, you know, groups like Antifa or other ideologies that don't mind violence and using violence to make points, uh, you know, that's that's not your average citizen who understands uh law enforcement and wants to make things better. This is a group that really wants to burn something down.
Chief Brian O'HaraAnd all it takes is one or two to light the first fire, one or two of them, and then you have chaos, you have a mob mentality, and you have 2020 all over again.
Credibility When You Lack Resources
Tom MuellerWell, one of the comments you made uh off offline here is that uh people can handle difficult truths. You need to be honest with them. How does that come into play here in the context of Minneapolis?
Chief Brian O'HaraI think um you know, we were living through crisis constantly. And I would say the majority of my time there, um it was uh operationally, it was a constant state of crisis. Uh, you know, we couldn't fill the shifts just to answer 911 calls on any shift in any precinct on any given day without relying overwhelmingly on overtime. Um and just in terms of uh some some of the some of the serious crime cases we had, we were triaging things. So there was going to be a delay. Uh and because of that, at times things were going to fall through the cracks. Um, and like I said before, you know, um when bad things do happen, you have to show up and be present and communicate what you know and tell people uh you know what what you don't know essentially, and we'll we'll update you in the future. Um but I think um I think it's important to try and be as credible about reality as possible, um, while while also giving people some sense uh that somebody somebody has things in handle uh you know handled and there's a way to move forward.
Tom MuellerYeah, so really being present, demonstrating that leadership. Um I'm curious, Chief. The I just had this vision, like you get up in the morning, you're throwing some water on your face, you're looking in the mirror. What are you saying to yourself each morning as you're getting yourself ready to go back into the fight for that day?
Chief Brian O'HaraWell, the the truth is, you know, I I did love the job, which may sound crazy. Um it was very difficult. I uh, you know, I had changed policies, notification policies. They were they would text me during the night when certain things happened, when other things happened, they were calling me. And a lot of times I was getting up in the morning after having been out at two o'clock in the morning, you know, or or just up and on the phone. Um and certainly none of the elected officials care about how often you have done that during the course of your career, just like they don't care about what the officers have actually done during the course of 25 years uh for the community. Um but I do strongly believe in um in this profession that there's just you have an unbelievable opportunity every single day uh to be the best part of someone's worst day. Um and in particular in these positions, leadership positions that some of us are lucky enough to have, we have an opportunity to try and affect things for the better across the board, to try and correct things um that need correcting. Um because, you know, certainly bad things have happened in policing in the past in this country, of course. Um and but we have come a long way, and still there's always going to be the need to improve. It's just the it's just the fact of life, that's how life is. Things change, and we need to be able to change with the times and stay on top of things and provide a better service. Um but it was a blessing to have a moment in time where you had the opportunity to affect policing in in a way that kind of the rest of the country was looking at what might be possible, what's gonna happen there after after George Floyd in 2020? It was uh it was certainly a a blessing to have that and to keep going.
Media Strategy Under Constant Scrutiny
Tom MuellerOne of the things you mentioned was a hostile press corps there. And I'm I'm curious from an internal organization perspective, did you have you know a public information officer? Did you have some comms team support? And um is there anything you do differently, you know, relating to pushing external communications or you know what did you do with that?
Chief Brian O'HaraWell, I had uh very consistently, I had a sergeant that was with me who was assigned as a public information officer, and had some other folks that were kind of in and out along the way. Um, and he's still there, and he's a workhorse, and he is incredible. Uh, he's very, very thoughtful, very, very smart uh and accurate with getting information, and he is willing to work around the clock, but it's still overwhelming. Uh the amount of requests that that organization gets, the amount of attention on it, uh is is is very much overwhelming. Um and so, you know, and it's also really, really critical to be accurate. Everybody wants stuff as quick as possible. There's all the you know mundane requests that come in every single day about all sorts of things that have happened over the last 24 hours, and all the different news organizations want it immediately. But then there's moments where you have real crisis. You have a police officer that's murdered, uh, you have the surge that happened that went on for 12 weeks. Um, you know, you have uh you know, we have several mass shootings, including one of children in a Catholic church. Um, and all of these things, uh, you know, aside from managing the operational response, which the staff uh and the members of that agency do very, very well, uh, the public response um and the way the narrative goes is so important. And I think in those moments, what had been helpful is one many people first the residents were used to seeing my face because I was present out there and I was on TV when something happened and I was answering what the questions people had about it. So they were used to that. Um, but also for me, when dealing with those moments of extreme crisis, um, it wasn't all that much different in terms of managing the media from what I did every single day because I was personally engaged in it um kind of the entire time. And it's just uh it is so easy to make a mistake um in a moment of crisis when you're dealing with the media, and they are so, so ruthless and unforgiving if you do. Um you know, I I I would like to think at times, even with people that we disagree with, um, that maybe we could we could we could trust uh one another's intentions, you know, that people do have the best of intentions, but at times it can be really, really unforgiving and you and you question whether or not people have the best interest in in of the community uh when they're driving some of this.
Tom MuellerDid uh did you spend a lot of time in front of TV cameras then out on scenes, or did you kind of I did.
Chief Brian O'HaraYeah, I did. And it was necessary. I mean, before I got there, I I think frankly, the mayor and the mayor's office there were just overwhelmed with a couple of years of non-stop having to answer for the police, and every time there was uh you know mass shootings and all these things. Like I kind of took all I took that on myself, um, and then would would bring the mayor in when I thought it was really important that he should be there, that he should come out with me at times and deal with things. But um, I think that did help with um with the with with some reporters at least, anyway, to develop a rapport. Um, because you just you get to know people, you learn their names and you kind of learn who people are, and they've seen you, we've done this together in the past. I I think that does help um, you know, at least to have some kind of relationship. But there's just, you know, unfortunately with uh with this business, there's there's some folks that uh they're gonna have their their view of things regardless.
Tom MuellerYeah, I I'm a big believer in building relationships with reporters. It's just harder and harder to do today because there's fewer reporters out there with the news organizations, given the broader pressure that they're feeling, you know, with dropping revenues for print and broadcast and all of that. So they're under pressure. Um, so the more you can build a relationship with a reporter, that's good. It makes you know, it makes it harder for them to look you in the eye the next time you see them if they've really you know done you wrong on a media.
Chief Brian O'HaraExactly. Exactly.
Presence And Change Without Breaking Things
Tom MuellerSo building a little accountability there. Um, hey, what you know, if you're talking to a group of executives, you know, about you know, managing an organization in crisis or turning things around, what's kind of your top uh leadership lessons that you would impart to other leaders?
Chief Brian O'HaraUm well, certainly, like I mentioned before, presence is powerful. I'd say for sure that's number one. Um, you know, you need to, at least if it's an organization like policing or something similar, you need to be on the street corner as much as you're in the corner office and adapt that to your organization, whether it's that out on the line with your employees, with your customers or your clients or experiencing your services and make that happen. You know, for me, one of the great challenges was, and I think it is common, at least in policing, like they're not gonna bring some outsider into the organization when everything is just fine and dandy. They're bringing in when things are in crisis, they tend to bring someone from the outside into the organization. Um, and so coming in, you know that there's this uniform, in my case, uniform mandate for quote unquote change, which wasn't actually change people were talking about. But there's also uh you also have to be aware yourself that you need to listen and need to learn about the organization, about its traditions, about what its its culture, uh, what people value, um, because they very much might be different from your own. You need to learn about people's expectations. I've seen over and over again that um whether it's because we're not communicating effectively, or it's because people have stories that they've been telling themselves about the way things are supposed to be, that then when they experience internally what the organization is doing or rolling out, that gap between people's expectations and what is happening is where frustration develops. And I think a lot of times that can be handled um with communication, but it can be really difficult. Um, the the larger organizations get, the more difficult that gets to be. Um, there's ways to employ technology. One of the things we did is we installed uh you know video uh uh video screens and the ability, the ability to have Zoom uh in the precinct briefing rooms at all the commands, so that we could get on with literally the entire city if we needed to. Um, both to give people routine updates, but also to address people uh in an emergency if we needed to. Um and I just uh I think those are those are some of the most important things that you shouldn't just be, particularly in a crisis, if you're coming into a an organization in crisis, you shouldn't be making change for change's sake because you you could wind up breaking things that are working in in the progress, the process.
Tom MuellerSo in the end, Chief, when you left this department um and headed out, how do you feel about your tenure there and you know knowing what you walked into, knowing how you left things? How do you how's what's your takeaway from from that?
Chief Brian O'HaraWell, I think um I I think for sure um we took an organization that was in free fall, that people were still leaving, and it took some time, it took about two years to stop the organization from getting smaller to start rebuilding. They're finally on a path to rebuild. Um and that's really really significant. And safety has improved dramatically in the city, and the level of trust and the amount of engagement between the the officers and the residents have improved dramatically. Um and I think that has helped people heal as well. Um and I think you know the organization is uh changing pretty dramatically just from the amount of people who have been hired. I think the majority of the patrol force now um was not there in 2020. So even just in the process of changing people, you're you're able to change sort of the culture and the practices. And I changed a lot of policies and things that they do that were not not because it was required in in consent decree and that kind of thing, these court-ordered reforms. I changed additional things um that I think have been helpful um in different ways and tried to help members of the organization understand again that to have these positions is is a privilege to be in this service and that it's meaningful work that you get to do. And you can be proud of it again, because they certainly certainly um were not feeling that a couple of years ago.
Navigating Performative Politics And Loss
Tom MuellerYou know, one of the challenges that I I heard you mention in there was dealing with the elected officials and the different personalities uh that you're uh you know that you're seeing there. Uh people who are constantly sort of sniping at you. And again, revisit for me, just you know, you're trying to do the right thing, you're trying to rebuild the organization, and yet you've got people shooting arrows at you every day, probably elected officials, even, right? Or community leaders, people you really need to be on your side. And so uh how did you deal with with those people who, you know, it had to feel you know disingenuous what they were doing?
Chief Brian O'HaraIt was a learning experience, honestly. Um, and it was difficult for me. I had to learn that at times that there's situational ethics for people. Um and I learned, like I mentioned before, there's a very performative nature uh that can be had in local government politics where it's literally just a performance at times. Um because what would get me was some folks I could have a fantastic relationship with one-on-one in private. Um and then in public, you know, you'd hear them say some things that would just leave you shaking your head, feeling like, wait a minute, what what is that? Um so that's disappointing. Um but I mean, uh you know, some of it I I I some of it was difficult to get over. Um you know, I had a a police officer that was murdered uh during my time. Uh he was an incredible human being, Jamal Mitchell. Um his body worn camera video shows him walking up to a person in the street that he thinks is injured. And you can see on his video he's putting on the blue medical gloves and uh calling out to the person to help him. And turns out the person was a murderer who turned around with a handgun, shot him in the head, and then kept shooting him when he was dead on the ground. And in the aftermath of his death, um just sort of some of the things that were I guess said or not said, not acknowledging him um by some folks um at different times um was was really really really disturbing to me. Um because I felt like some folks in positions of authority there did not understand the responsibility that they shared for sending him to his death. Um and that's something that I hadn't spoken about publicly while I was there because it's just not appropriate. But it's one thing that bothered me. Um it bothered me for a long time and was difficult to get over.
Tom MuellerWell, if they were standing in front of you today, what would your message be to those folks?
Chief Brian O'HaraI had handled it privately. Um and and and said literally what I that I just told you. Um that it's just it's it's not excusable.
Tom MuellerWell, good for you for putting that feedback to him because it's just so frustrating to see you know myth truths, misinformation um, you know, being generated and shared uh by people who know better. And unfortunately, I think that just goes to the performative nature of our politics today, as you've mentioned there, Chief. So, yeah, that would uh been so frustrating. And again, you had so many forces arrayed against you in that. Um, I'm surprised you uh your hair's not grayer and you're not going bald at this point. Because there's a lot of stress involved with all of that.
Self-Care When Work-Life Balance Fails
Tom MuellerWhat did you do to uh to relax? How were you able to sort of step away and find your zone and you know maintain your own inner peace through all of this turmoil?
Chief Brian O'HaraI think just uh I think more nights than not, I would come home and uh pour a glass of uh super Tuscan or some other red wine. And then I would wake up in the morning with the glass sitting next to me, you know, still full and wasted uh because I just knocked out and fallen asleep before I could drink it. I would try and go, uh it was a uh Lifetime Fitness Center. Uh I lived in downtown Minneapolis. I would go there, uh, try and do that every day. Um I do the best I could um, you know, to stay in touch with family, um, which which can be challenging at times with you know these uh you know late late nights and you know having to go to events and things. Um but I always thought, you know, there's such a push, especially, and it's it's it's good. There's a push today to ensure that we have uh you know a work-life balance and these kinds of things, and that's very, very big out there. Um that's a positive thing because we need to be concerned about people's wellness and and all that sort of thing. But at the same time, for leaders um that are given opportunities to do these types of roles, I think we have to acknowledge that this is a moment in time that we may not have our work-life balance, we may not be able to take vacation and do these other kinds of things. Uh, but we have to be grateful that we have the opportunity um to have these things because it is all temporary. Um and then at the same time to just try and keep an awareness while you're going through this, uh, while you're in these positions, um that the title and thing will be gone eventually, and you will be left with yourself and what is most important in life. And that's of course your family and the ability to look back and say, when you know, I had a position of leadership, we were able to do something positive with it uh in service for other people. And that's something that you can you can cherish for the rest of your life.
Tom MuellerWell said there, Chief. Well said.
ICE Surge Response And Closing Thoughts
Tom MuellerOne final question for you before we wrap. I just wanted to circle back to the ICE enforcement action that um you know that really sort of set the city on fire uh once again uh a couple of years ago there. Was that a complete surprise to you? And uh what um I mean, uh the frustration level of you know trying to get things under control and having this whole new brush fire jump out at you. How did you feel about that thing getting started and what did you do?
Chief Brian O'HaraSo I I I think from uh sort of the moment that the Trump administration took over again, they had been communicating, obviously, and putting money into immigration enforcement. So certainly we knew something was coming. Um but the challenge for uh you know police chiefs in in certain in cities around the country, uh, in certain cities anyway, is that we have local law or state law that requires a separation between enforcement of immigration law and and the role of local police. And people can agree or disagree with that, but we have to acknowledge that that's the way our country functions, that local police are a function of the state and local government, and we follow those laws. We don't enforce federal law, which is I think a lot of people just kind of don't understand. So we had been expecting it. There had been an incident uh on June 3rd, um, which is actually two or three days before Los Angeles blew up. Uh, if you remember, there was National Guard in Los Angeles, and for a couple weeks, some some protesting and and and destruction in downtown LA. And we had the same type of operation happen in Minneapolis. It was unrelated to immigration enforcement, but there was a search warrant happening at a Mexican restaurant in in a central part of the city that had literally burned in 2020. So that created an enormous reaction where we tried to prepare uh for if we actually did have um an immigration surge. Um so we had gone out and engaged with community and and and publicly got feedback on our policies and processes and just tried to establish and educate to try to educate the community about our role and establish a common understanding of what we can and cannot do. Because what happens with uh at times with the way the way some of these things are communicated is people develop an expectation that's just not at all in line with reality. It's not in line. We want police to do things that are are just not they're not lawful, they're not realistic. Um, so we did the best we could to help the community understand what our role was. But when the surge happened there, uh it was it was overwhelming. It was unlike anything um I have ever seen before, anything I could have anticipated, it was extremely chaotic. I would have done anything to make it stop. Anything. Um, you know, we had uh it was a 24-hour uh state of crisis because we had, you know, during the day we had raids happening, you had tens of thousands of people marching, but then at night you had random these social media protests popping up at hotels where they thought um immigration officers were staying and and and the roadblocks happening and all kinds of chaos. Um, so it was a constant edge of your seat waiting for the next thing to happen that could light the spark to burn the city down again. Um and and you know, we had, as people know, there were three shootings uh federal law enforcement was involved in. Two were fatal, one was non-fatal. Um and just that that last one, that third one, uh, was on a Saturday morning. And that is the closest we got. I I thought I thought we might lose it that night. Um, because after that shooting had happened, there were two fires that had started quickly. Um, we were scrambling to get people there. I was scrambling to get the National Guard out onto the street um to help keep the peace. Because I don't think people don't understand, they get caught up in in their politics or their way of viewing things, and they don't understand. There's a lot of emphasis on the, you know, it's 10,000 plus peaceful protesters happening, and that that is all true, and it's a little positive thing and something to be proud of. But what people don't understand, what I was worried about is the one or two bad guys that are gonna break the first window and light something on fire while there's 10,000 people in the street and we can't get there in time, and that's when you have the first domino that falls that could cause 2020 kind of all over again. So um, just a really, really tense time. Um and and then it's just it's kind of remarkable after the fact, some of the criticisms that are had towards the police uh locally there, which I think uh what I've experienced overwhelmingly in the rest of the country is people admire the balancing act that we that we did perform, that we did the best we could to just sort of maintain order uh and and and prevent destruction from happening again. Um but then you know there's there's folks locally um that just that just don't see it that way.
Tom MuellerWell, Chief, you waded into some very, very deep um personal and professional challenges here. Congratulations on making it through all that and making a difference where you could. And of course, thank you for coming on the show today. Really appreciate you sharing your leadership stories with uh with us and with our audience.
Chief Brian O'HaraThank you so much for having me, Tom. Appreciate it.
Tom MuellerAnd that's gonna do it for this episode of the Leading in a Crisis Podcast. And if you'd like to email the show, you can drop me a line at Tom at leadinginacrisis.com. And thank you again for being here, and we'll see you again for another episode soon. Let's take a look at the city.
