Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_04 1:07

So I thought you might enjoy rehearing this episode. I hope you like it as much as I do. All right. Hey, with us today we have a very special guest from the shipping world, uh, Jeff Johnson. Jeff has a long history working in the shipping business, and he'll fill us in on that in just a minute. Uh, but uh started off sailing on ships on the West Coast, uh, and then uh currently today is serving as president of the Cook Inlet Barge and Tug Company out of Alaska. Jeff, welcome to the program.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Thanks, Tom. Um, yeah, happy to be here.

SPEAKER_04 1:49

Good. I I know you're a native Alaskan, so does it feel good being back in Alaska to work uh with the tug and barge company?

SPEAKER_02 1:58

It is. Uh, you know, I've been blessed across my career to work uh work across the world, um, but I've always had my sights on returning home and and it's nice to be home. And for the last four years, I've been living the dream, uh running one of the greatest tug companies in the United States and living in Alaska.

SPEAKER_04 2:17

Well, that just sounds like as as good as it gets right there. Well, Jeff, uh one of the things we like to do on this podcast is is let guests sort of introduce yourself a little bit. So if

What Crisis Leadership Requires

SPEAKER_04 2:30

you're meeting somebody for the first time and just doing a quick uh intro of your experience and and life, what would uh what would that sound like?

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Well, I'd probably start with uh being fourth generation Alaskan, raised up here, uh pioneering families, uh a pioneering family that really ventured into the commercial fishing world, and I started as a commercial fisherman. Um my love of the sea began there, and I worked my way up sailing on oil tankers uh uh around the world, but primarily U.S. West Coast out of Valdez. Um, opportunities then as I grew older and had a family to come ashore and take on various shore roles, both based in Washington State, uh Houston, Alaska, and in Singapore. So most recently uh I I left a role in Singapore four years ago to come home and be back in Alaska and loving every minute of it.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

Wow, you're a true world traveler by boat and by airplane. So sounds like a terrific career.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

You know, I look back and I'm truly blessed, and I I can't think of anything I would change. It's been uh it's been a great journey and it continues to be.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

Well, good. And you know, we're gonna delve into your crisis experience a little bit uh as we continue our conversation. And uh, but I want to just kind of uh start, um, just kind of ask you, what does leading in a crisis bring to mind for you? What does it take to be able to lead in a crisis, in your view?

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Well, being from the shipping uh industry, uh it it takes it takes a number of things. Um for instance, the in the crisis may not be in the location you're at. So it takes uh several things to help. One one of the I think the biggest key is communications. Communications across all your help, all the impacted individuals, uh every responder and regulators is key. If without communications, um the crisis is is uh becomes just ultimately harder. Um, you know, I I look back on on what has helped me and I'll be honest, be a sense of humility when you're a crisis leader because you are working with folks that have been impacted potentially. You're working with excellent folks trying to correct the situation, and again regulators and uh and politicians. So you wanna you wanna show and believe that you're doing all you can, it's in the best interest for everybody. So you know that communication is coupled with humility, um, but you gotta throw flexibility in as well. So every crisis changes daily, sometimes hourly, and you just have to be ready to to shift, um, change your change your plan of attack and um make sure you get the team ready behind you to do that. Those are kind of the three things that I can think of.

SPEAKER_04 5:33

Yeah, and the the humility aspect of that is uh is something worth repeating here because um it's not something you hear talked about a lot when we think about incident commanders or crisis leaders. And Jeff, I know you've been an incident commander for incidents over the course of your career, uh, but it's it's fascinating to hear you touch on that because as I think back on leaders I've worked with, you know, who I really enjoyed working with, that was one of the key factors there was the humility that they brought into that job and into that room. Everyone was important, and you know, they just checked their ego at the door and were super um humble, even as they were managing a very complex organization and response.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

That's what I was doing. Yeah, I agree. Go ahead, Jeff.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

I agree. The the genuine, the genuineness is is important. Um, you know, you have to want to be a crisis leader and you have to want to care. And um, you're right, some folks uh may struggle with that, but I think you said checking your ego at the door is absolutely one of the couple of things you're gonna hang up as you walk in, because again, you're dealing with folks that are impacted, either either to a large degree or a small degree, but you want to make sure that you're doing all you can to help them and then keeping your folks safe while you help.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

So if

Training Habits For New Responders

SPEAKER_00 7:09

you're in the line of taking care and helping those younger folks coming aboard, um what are two or three things that you would really recommend that uh a young communicator should do to be ready to respond in the crisis?

SPEAKER_02 7:27

You know, it's funny, you you you may not know you're in a crisis until you're in one, uh in various roles you may have. And and I I've often helped coach and maybe mentor folks in their daily jobs. If you're trained in crisis techniques and crisis management and and even in the US, the the ICS system, you can use that in in daily jobs to to help you in the system and actually drive maybe better outcomes. So if if you're in an operations group, maybe in a in a refinery or a factory, um, and something goes wrong, you can actually go through the steps of ICS and you can resolve that issue instantly there with the folks you have, and it's a training opportunity. Um I think it's important also, you know, tips for for folks coming up is is to swap roles frequently if if you're active in in an instant command system. So just because you run an operations team maybe uh at a refinery or again a factory, doesn't mean maybe you're the best suited person for an operations role on an ICS. You know, logistics may be where you should be and you may enjoy it more. So I think it's good to swap roles and kind of learn where your niche is. Um You know, we all have emergency crisis plans in place from business continuity to oil still response to to earthquake and and other natural disaster plans. And it's really important for folks to know those plans. I mean, we have them, they're on the shelf. Pull them down, look through them, because a lot of smart people help put those together and they're really a usable guide for for folks to to grab and go. So uh a lot of companies I don't think do that enough, and for for young folks wanting to or for new folks in the crisis uh community, uh it's a good thing to do is to start with knowing the the response plans that are in place.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Great, glad that you could share that. So again, the first one is try to coordinate uh working on ICS on a daily basis so that when the real thing comes, you're already used to the structure swap roles so you find your best fit, which is great advice. And then to know the plans you have. And and you're absolutely right, every client I've worked with has plenty of plans. Uh most times they're not refreshed or they're not they're not read. And so many times they're not actually even coordinated. So I agree with you know, three points there for not just new people in the field, but it's good discipline for everybody.

What Makes A Strong PIO

SPEAKER_04 10:09

So, Jeff, um thinking about uh let's talk PIOs for a minute here, public information officer or liaison officers. Uh, as an incident commander, kind of looking back on your experiences, you know, what are the characteristics that you think make for a good public information officer or liaison officer, or even an op section chief for that matter?

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Um again, I'll start with you know what I said earlier around humility. Um a PIO really is kind of leading the outward-facing uh bits and pieces of a response. And this is what the people out there will see when the operations teams and uh the command staff are grinding away in a command post, maybe. So you know the PIO is an important role, and I think one of the biggest keys there is, and we've seen it in responses, we've seen it when we watch something on television, is knowing your data. Uh there's a lot of information inside a command post, and knowing where to go and to drive consistent use of data and clean data, accurate data, it ultimately will help that that PIO in the end, and the ops team. Um I've seen chaotic times in in in my past where you know different data is used or different data at different times throughout the day is used, and so numbers don't match up, which leads to concerns or angst amongst maybe citizens or politicians or regulators.

SPEAKER_04 11:48

Yeah, there's probably a whole episode around data management within a unified command or an incident management team, you know, just keeping track of the vessels deployed, the boom deployed, the the people deployed, uh, all of that. It's a huge logistics challenge, but one that the ICS is sort of designed to manage, but a huge challenge nonetheless I think uh the the last bit for all three of the roles you you you mentioned, you know, PIO opsection she listen, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:28

I I think listening is key. Um you know we've we've seen training films in the past where maybe uh PIOs might not have listened. You know, if you can stay as long as you possibly can, answer every single question three or four times, at the end of the day, uh the response will go easier, um, the community will feel better. But if we rush through the communication side of providing information to the public, um it usually leads to more angst at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_04 13:05

Jeff,

Press Conferences And Staying Present

SPEAKER_04 13:06

one other uh issue that you you bring to mind there is just the preparation aspects of doing a press conference and that um because when you're an incident commander and potentially going out to stand in front of a phalanx of television cameras, being prepared for that is uh quite a challenge. And in my experience, in most incidents, there's just not a lot of time to prepare an incident commander uh for a press conference. But I was curious, your experience uh in that for the you know the uh incidents and exercises that you've worked, uh did you did you feel prepared to step out and do that?

SPEAKER_02 13:52

So I'd say uh there were times where I did and probably more times where I didn't, honestly. Um but you know, I look back on what happens during you know a busy day in the command post. Um, and I think one of the common issues we see is your your command staff, be it federal, state, if you're in the US, um, and of course the responsible party, they get sidelined into continual stream of meetings. One of the things I always like to do is book time on the meeting schedule for us to be out and on the floor and talking and seeing what people are working on. Look at the graphics that are being developed, look at the information sheets that are out that are being developed by the teams on the floor, because ultimately when you get asked the question uh in a press conference, that extra 15 minutes giving yourself just being on the floor and talking to folks and understanding what they're working with will go a long way in helping you in a press conference. Um much more than you know handing being handed a you know a couple of pages of bullet points to repeat. I think you really need to know the response and know what's happening, which is difficult at times given the the uh the stress and the timeline.

SPEAKER_04 15:11

Yeah, absolutely, and the the number of meetings that uh incident commanders required to attend on a daily basis. So schedule or you know, calendar management is a is a really important point that you've raised there. And we coach that into um sections all the time, is if you've got something that you're gonna need the incident commander in, you need to get that on the schedule so we can make time for it and then make time for preparation as well. So, yeah, really excellent point.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Yeah, and you're you're really talking about what used to be called the Hewlett-Packard way, where it was management by wandering around. Just spend enough time to know what's happening. Um I made a little note while you were talking because from from what you're saying, it's possible that when the JIC brings up uh a press release or a new a new statement that as you're describing, it's possible that that may mention some things that you might not have seen before if you're not out there seeing what's being being developed and so on. So all the more important that that review and approval process occurs. And I'll I'll have a question about that later. But

Common Mistakes And Data Confusion

SPEAKER_00 16:28

real quickly, um, you've talked about um what are the characteristics of a good PIO or section leader, but let's let's flip the table a bit and say what are some of the mistakes you've seen made in some of your exercises or in the actual events, either by PIO or by the incident commander, or again, as Tom mentioned, by a section. No names, of course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Yeah, no names, but I think they're all lessons learned, right? So at the end of the day, well while it might have been deemed a mistake or or one of those I wish I would have done better moments. Uh you know, I think uh not answering questions, uh, or not staying long enough to answer a full gambit of questions. You know, when when a press conference is given 20 minutes um, but there's 30 minutes worth of questions in the room, you know, that's real important that you you might want to stick around and and be able to field some of those further questions because at the end of the day that'll help again with the public information. So I think that's one of the bigger issues I've seen is is we rush through a press conference and we leave people wanting more.

unknown 17:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Um and then finally that bites us in the backside at the end of the day because in a vacuum people will will come up with their own information. So um I I think that's one of the the bigger issues I've seen. And then yeah, I talked a bit about the data, you know, knowing knowing where to get the data and and consistent use of it. I think back to a to a time where I was in a in an actual response and there was a team of folks walking around a very large command post, and you know, they they were federal officials, and they came up to my section. I was I think I was in logistics at the time, and they said, we need this information now for POTUS. And well, POTUS isn't a word I'd used very much in my career, honestly. And I realized that you know, here at two in the afternoon, our data set might have been set at eight in the morning and it'll be coming out at 6 p.m. at night. But you know, they're looking at information to give to the president that is going to be off-cycle for the information that we've been sharing publicly. So I in that moment I quickly went and found the PIO and said, hey, we got people asking, can you help usher them through? But they just wandered around as they as they're allowed to and came across our graphics boards in our little section and we're we're writing things down feverishly. And across the day, that information had changed since we'd last posted it publicly. So that's one of the fears that that I've seen come true.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Good point.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

Cool.

SPEAKER_04 19:15

Yeah, and you know, in a it's interesting, the you know, the sort of demands for information are constant, but the organization that's running the response, uh, you know, the management team, they've got to be able to have time to develop that information, verify it, and then make it available for public information uses and that. And that's that's a forever challenge uh within a command post, right? Is it's getting the latest information and verified information. Um, so there's real challenges there. And that's why we often fall back on the infamous 209 form, which hope hopefully is updated um twice a day. Uh and that what's your experience with uh you know with that, Jeff, in terms of you know information accuracy and being able to get accurate information, especially early on.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Well, it's it's it in the early stages, you know, in the reactionary stage, information's flowing in quickly in some cases, and in some cases not at all. You may have a section of response where where we've got live TV feed, we've got you know people on the ground calling in, and then there might be a section that's quite remote and we haven't heard from folks in four hours. So it's kind of a mixed bag what we've seen. Um but you know, at the end of the day, the challenge is of course is how do we how do we react and report that out and and deal with it? Um and again in the reactionary stage when we're first standing up, it's it's tough, but you have to recognize it. I I think you know, as we go into response and we settle in, you know, having that agreement with your if you're in the US, the the Unified Command as to times for data approvals and which data set is correct, like you mentioned the 209 form, you know, getting that approval amongst the unified command and the agencies that are there, that this will be the Bible of information, um, goes a long way. So uh I've seen in the past where maybe we rush through that. And nobody agrees that this is the set of stone tablets that we'll use moving forward of information, and it does create hardship in the future if we don't.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Right. We actually saw that in one actual event down here on the California coast. Um the Jack actually got permission from Unified Command to turn the two oh nine into a daily update listing that you could keep multiple dates on so uh stakeholders could look and see. The difference in birds or boom and so on. And it became automatic. And that as quickly as NFI came out, accepted the neutral nine is madely available to post. And that seemed to be really helpful because it then gave more time at that press conference to talk about why all those events are occurring or why you're doing what you're doing. And it seemed to really help with that. And it it helped, especially with back to your comment that virtually every press conference script I've seen, and in many actual events, there's always that escape hatch for unified command after about 20 minutes. And so that's that's great advice to at least use that 20 minutes widely, but maybe stay put a bit longer. And if you can't, at least leave the PIO there.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Yeah, yeah, it goes a long way. Um, and if if you can afford the time, it's it's time well spent for sure.

unknown 22:59

Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:01

Hey Jeff, uh little uh softball question here. What's um as you think about um as you think about the incidents you've worked and the exercises you've worked, I wonder if you have kind of a pet peeve, uh things that bother you, uh, that you see, sort of behaviors you see in an exercise or even in an actual response that people should watch out for and try to avoid.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Yeah,

Pet Peeves In Unified Command

SPEAKER_02 23:34

and and I think fortunately that my my list isn't very long. I mean, I think there's an external piece that most folks are disgusted with, and that's where where maybe we see fraud occurring. But I don't want to speak to that. I think for me, um, one of my biggest pet peeves is you know, we assemble a structure of let's talk unified command, and and you you've got the right people in the room. Um, and those are folks that um in all senses are delegated all the authorities they need to help with the response and make the response move forward. And more often than not, we slowly find that maybe it's not the right people in the room, and maybe that FOSC or state on-seen coordinator has to make calls before they can make decisions. And that really um while while we allow it, it it does slow things down and it does kind of muddle the effectiveness of the unified command. So if if I could just put one kind of stick in the ground around what I think kind of upsets me a bit, uh, like you said, a pet peeve, it would be having the wrong people in decision-making roles that aren't delegated the authority to do so.

SPEAKER_04 24:54

Yeah, that's that sounds like a very frustrating um operating environment there. And then of course you have to kind of work around those individuals in order to get things done. Um, yeah, sounds like a very frustrating place to be. How about in crisis exercises? Uh, anything you see in um exercises? And one of the one of the things I'll throw out is when people just play to the exercise, and you know, they're uh sort of, you know, they're in the room and they're doing things, but they're not really taking it seriously as a good way to practice, you know.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Yeah, we see that. Yeah, I agree with you, Tom. You see that regularly, and you see it across all groups, command, and general staff. You see it from regulators, politicians, uh, responders. Um, it's a great opportunity to roll up our sleeves, figure out what we're not doing well, and fix it. But oftentimes, you know, those drills are unfortunately they're graded, I guess is the best way to say it. So under an environment where we're practicing as hard as we can, but there's a pass fail component to it, a lot of times you'll see, you know, maybe some folks playing to the microphone, so to speak. But you know, if you dive deep, you'll see that maybe they're not doing what they should be doing. Um, so so if it's if it's a pass fail environment, sometimes you lose some of that training credibility. Um, I get it, drills are required, drills you know, prove your response capabilities, but you know, oftentimes we forget that they're training environment and we can learn from them. So I usually try to stress that, but there are times when it's truly a pass fail.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Right. Well, and since both of you shared, I've got one that always sticks with me, and that is when the the regulators don't show up to be a part of the drill they're requiring. That's always a frustration when you're supposed to be learning how to work together and introducing ideas and processes, and then some of the people that you would be in the room with a national event just for whatever reason just can't be there. And to me that's a real challenge.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Yeah, we've seen that happen, and it is unfortunate, right? Because it's it's not only their personal training, because you know, the next time a maybe a true incident occurs, that person is now a state on scene coordinator and really hasn't got much practice at it, right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

So it's an opportunity wasted.

unknown 27:41

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Can we ask

Fixing The Approval Spiral With Deputies

SPEAKER_00 27:44

you one more thing about uh uh wearing your incident commander hat? Um PIL shows up with a a document for approval. What advice can you give for getting that approval process to happen in one swoop instead of present, revise, present, revise, present, revise the the death cycle that we can get into?

SPEAKER_02 28:09

Oh yeah, it's a spiral. Uh I've seen it and it's frustrating for everybody. I uh one of the one of the things that in in the shipping side of the business that I used and uh shamelessly stole from somebody else was we we delegate authorities as an incident commander. We had several deputies. So uh in my past, we'd always have a command staff deputy and a general staff deputy. So if operations or you know logistics had questions and maybe incident commanders on a site visit or in a meeting, that person has full delegation and authority to respond as if they were the incident commander. And what that does is that helps, especially for the deputy incident commander on command staff, it helps work with the PIL. So by the time it walks through the command, uh unified command room, it's done. And we encourage in in responses and in drills that our colleagues maybe on the Unify Command do the same. And for the most part, they try. But um, I think sometimes that slowdown process occurs uh maybe at a state level where they haven't followed that same practice. We we like to think it was the best practice to have multiple deputies uh just filling in and sorting things so that it did speed that process up. And and when it worked, it worked great. It worked really great, Mark.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Right. Well, and that's also training your next incident commanders, which is great. I was at an exercise in Texas with your guys, Alma Matt Matter, where one of the injects were a command, um the command had gone up for an overflight and their plane was forced down, so they weren't back in incident command in time for the next round of decisions and briefings and so on. And that was a very significant wrench in the works because a lot of people in the room just weren't ready to step into those roles. So what you quickly was a great prevention of that.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

And in that, it's a great test. And in that moment, you quickly find who is ready as well, right? Um so uh I'd encourage that. I've I've seen exercises, um, you know, thinking back to my shipboard days where maybe the the chief engineer who's accountable for you know starting the fire pump doesn't show up. So now the second engineer, third engineer has to figure it out. So I think it's a it's a great training tool to use. Um, but yeah, sometimes you know you you either show the world that you're not ready or you see some greatness in some of your folks.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Right. And in addition to that, it gives you that time to wander around. Yeah, exactly. Great.

SPEAKER_04 30:55

Jeff, I had uh the opportunity to work a very large crisis where the incident commander actually followed that process you just talked about, where they appointed deputies. And I was just so thankful and so amazed at how that simplified the approval process because there was somebody always available then to get the latest FAQ or the latest press release approved, and we could get it out the door quickly. So I really grab onto that as a best practice. Um, and thanks for sharing that and reminding me about that because that's something that I'd like to see more of in more uh exercises and actual unified commands. Um I've got one like yeah, go ahead, Jeff.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

I was gonna say, and like Mark alluded to, it kind of kills two birds of one stone. Um, you know, you're training your future deputy, your deputies are now training to be incident commanders, and you know, you don't frustrate all the process and slow it down needless, um needlessly, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:01

So, one

Global Shipping Incidents And Trusted Partners

SPEAKER_04 32:02

final question for you here today, Jeff. I was thinking about um, you know, sort of international incident planning, and you mentioned your uh stint working in Singapore, and of course, uh shipping uh you know involves vehicles that are moving from port to port. And so you've got to be prepared to manage an incident kind of anywhere around the world that a ship might be going. Um, how how difficult, how challenging is that process? And what did you find uh that sort of worked for you as you were thinking through those issues?

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Yeah, I remember uh just having a conversation with a refinery manager one time, and and I said, you know, when you went to bed at 10 o'clock last night, you knew where the refinery was, and when you woke up at 8 in the morning, it was still right where you left it. And unfortunately for us, that a ship moves um and they move all over the world. So you're absolutely right that the challenges are huge for us in that from a shipping company perspective, typically it's it's small groups of folks in teams located globally. So in so in the US, maybe a shipping company might have, you know, 20 people in an office, and maybe in Europe they might have the same, and maybe in Asia. That's not a lot of people um, you know, uh spread across those those three areas that can instantly help, and not all of them are trained to respond. So what you really need are good partners, good organizations that you've contracted with, and um, you know, visit them as much as you can. I've always liked to be able to know you know my regulators, but in a global scale, that's really not possible. You you can't really go around the world and meet everybody you may end up sitting across the table from in an incident. So I think it's important to have good partners. Uh you know, if you've got um oil still response organizations with global um reach, they do a lot of that for you. Um so be active with those. Um and responses aren't typically it could be anything from you know a natural disaster to you know an environmental um incident. But we've even had you know human issues where maybe somebody unfortunately passes away while on board a ship, maybe have natural causes, but you know, having the right connections to respond to that, you know, it's it's no different than a than a than a big response you might see in an environment because you've got to figure out how to move people around the world, how to respond. And you end up with a very large Rolodex of response agencies that will help. And I think that's the biggest piece to it. Now, if if you're part of a larger organization, you can really lean on other business units within it. So I'm thinking naturally maybe an oil company. Um, and and you can rely on employees maybe in another country to help. But you know, in most cases, shipping companies just don't have that. They're they're running 20 ships around the world and they might have a total shoreside crew of 20. So it becomes a challenge.

Final Takeaways And Thanks

SPEAKER_04 35:24

All right, Jeff, thanks thanks so much for joining us today, Jeff. Really appreciate you taking time and sharing some of your many experiences uh in the shipping world as an internet commander uh and as a shipboard staff. So uh thank you again for that.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

Yeah, um my pleasure it's an important topic, and I'm excited.

SPEAKER_04 35:59

Thanks for three, three.