The Leading in a Crisis Podcast
Interviews, stories and lessons learned from experienced crisis leaders. Email the show at Tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
Being an effective leader in a corporate or public crisis situation requires knowledge, tenacity, and influencing skills. Unfortunately, most of us don't get much training or real experience dealing with crisis situations. On this podcast, we will talk with people who have lived through major crisis events and we will tap their experience and stories from the front lines of crisis management.
Your host, Tom Mueller, is a veteran crisis manager and trainer with more than 30 years in the corporate communications and crisis fields. Tom currently works as an executive coach and crisis trainer with WPNT Communications, and as a contract public information officer and trainer through his personal company, Tom Mueller Communications LLC.
Your co-host, Marc Mullen, has over 20 years of experience as a communication strategist. He provides subject matter expertise in a number of communication specializations, including crisis communication plan development, response and recovery communications, emergency notifications and communications, organizational reviews, and after-action reports. He blogs at Blog | Marc Mullen
Our goal is to help you grow your knowledge and awareness so you can be better prepared to lead should a major crisis threaten your organization.
Music credit: Special thanks to Nick Longoria from Austin, Texas for creating the theme music for the podcast.
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The Leading in a Crisis Podcast
EP90 Stranded in Antarctica - a leadership test, with David Knoff
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
When COVID hit, David Knoff was leading Australia’s Davis Station in Antarctica, expecting a one-year rotation with a predictable route home. What he got instead was a blunt message from headquarters: the mission is extended, the logistics are collapsing, and no one can promise a firm extraction date. If you’ve ever had to lead through uncertainty, this story lands hard because it strips crisis leadership down to the essentials.
We talk about the leadership and coping challenges of being far from home, stranded, and unsure what the future might bring. This remote assignment is not so different from what astronauts experience and train for in space. And what do you do when one of your team stops coping with this impossible situation and gives up? David sheds light on how he and his team managed through that situation, tapping into his military and diplomatic experience.
Then we get into the most human part of crisis management: what happens when one person stops coping. David explains how he and his leadership core respond, why the wider group matters more than a heavy-handed command approach, and how teams can recover after a low point.
We get some fantastic leadership insights in this episode. Please like and subscribe.
David's new book, 437 Days of Winter, is available at bookstores in Australia and New Zealand, and on Amazon in other countries.
You can reach David through is website, DavidKnoff.com.
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We'd love to hear from you. Email the show at Tom@leadinginacrisis.com.
Welcome Back And Why Antarctica
Tom MuellerHi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a Crisis Podcast. On this podcast, we talk all things crisis management and we like to deliver stories from the front lines. I'm Tom Mueller on today's show. Well, before I jump into that, let me just take a moment and say we've been away for a little bit of time here. So we're fresh and new back to the microphone after a personal surgery and some extended travel. So we've been away, we have lots of interesting conversations planned for the coming months. So I hope you'll stay tuned and join us for each one of those. On our show today, uh we are going to take you to Antarctica and talk about some dramatic things that happened down there during the COVID period. Our guest today is David Knoff. David was station leader for the Davis station on Antarctica when COVID hit. And what turned, or what should have been, a one-year deployment for the team that was sent down to the station became an open-ended deployment with no end in sight, and the chaos of COVID, you know, encircling the world. David was in charge of the team and the station during that period. So some incredible stories here of leadership, of dealing with people, with the real human events and human emotions that we all deal with when we get into tough crisis situations. David, welcome to the show.
David KnoffThanks, Tom. Good
Meet David Knoff’s Unusual Path
David Knoffto be here. And yeah, looking forward to where this conversation takes us.
Tom MuellerDavid's coming to us from Melbourne in Australia. You may hear from his voice, he is indeed an Australian. Quick bio on David. He grew up in Melbourne and studied history and politics at Monash University while completing his Australian Army officer training. David served as an infantry platoon commander in the Solomon Islands, then became a diplomat and served in diplomatic corps on a couple of postings, one in Islamabad, the other in Baghdad, before taking on this assignment as station leader at the Davis station in Antarctica. And what an incredible sort of transition, David, from you know being a platoon commander, a diplomat, and it just feels like you could use all of those skills on a deployment to Antarctica. Is that true?
David KnoffYeah, it had a strange familiarity to it. And I think that the move from uh from uniform, so I enjoyed my time in the in the defense force, but then transitioned to diplomacy. Ironically, I spent most of my time as a diplomat back in war zones in a kind of polo shirt rather than a uniform, but you were still alongside troops. So that was that was quite familiar. And then when I started uh doing Antarctic expeditions and joined Australia's National Antarctic program, when I first got to the Antarctic research stations and even our field camps that we run in Antarctica, they're so similar to forward operating bases in the war zones, save for the one key difference of everything's brightly colored, so you can see it in a blizzard, as opposed to everything in a war zone that's kind of camouflage or olive dram or grey. So it's but the so much of the equipment, certainly a lot of the generators and communications equipment and all the hardened laptops and satellite phones and tracking gear and forced trackers and all this sort of stuff that we'd seen and used in the war zones. Like I get to Antarctica and someone would be like, Oh, we're gonna have to train you on how to use this equipment. I'm like, No, I got it. So that was it was good.
Tom MuellerYeah, that's great. Well, it just yeah, it does feel like kind of a natural
Building A Winter Team From Scratch
Tom Muellersegue there. Um David, set the set the stage for us, if you will, please. Um, you're newly assigned as the expedition leader for the latest expedition heading down to Davis Station. And this was meant to be just uh a one-year deployment and then back. But um yeah, it didn't turn out that way. So, what were your expectations and those of the crew as you entered this assignment?
David KnoffYeah, that's right. So we'll take everyone back to about October 2019, which was when me and the team, there's gonna be 24 of us that would spend one year at Davis Research Station, which is one of Australia's three permanent stations in Antarctica. Uh, we'd spend one year there. We'd spend the summer, where there'd actually be a bigger team, there'd be about 100 people throughout the first summer, but 24 of us would stay through the winter time and come back 12 months later. Now, for most of the group, it was going to be us certainly our first overwinter in Antarctica, which is a unique challenge in itself. Um, and the majority of us as well, you know, some of us had been to Antarctica for short trips. I'd done a mountaineering expedition there, and a few others had done short summer trips, and only one or two had been down for winter before. So for a lot of us, it was really quite a new experience. And in that wintering team, it's less than a 50-50 split of scientists and support and operations stuff. So most of the group in the wintering team, myself as the station leader, you've got one doctor, you've got one chef, you've got a couple of meteorologists, some weather observers, one science technician, uh, one kind of chief scientist that monitors a bunch of things, and then the rest of the team is electricians, plumbers, mechanics, plant operators, etc., that keep the station running. So we're essentially just a bunch of ordinary Australians who were looking for a change of pace for a year to go and spend a year in Antarctica running the stations. And that's sort of how it's recruited. And in a lot of ways, you're signing up for that adventure of like, oh, this will be this will be a great change of pace, do something different, go to Antarctica for a year. And we had the in hindsight naive view that we and you we were going to be the 73rd year of Australia's permanent presence in Antarctica. So you've got to think that over, and as we saw, that over those 73 years, obviously in the early days was pretty tough, but the last 20 or 30 years in the modern age of you know modern ice-breaking ships, satellite communications, and everything, the rotations have become pretty routine. You you signed up for your year in Antarctica, you pretty much it went more or less to plan. Now you might go down via the ship and come back borrow a plane, or something might change here or there where you your return date is a little bit different, but you you never in a million years expect that there's going to be a situation of hang on a minute, uh, the whole world's gonna lock down and everything's just gonna get cancelled and everything's gonna have to start from scratch. So when we got the team together, we had a couple of months together doing some training uh in Hobart, which is Australia's most southernly capital uh in our state of Tasmania, where we we base all our Antarctic trips from and have done for a number of years. We got together there and you do a whole bunch of really unique and amazing training, which is a great chance to really build the team. So it because down on the Antarctic stations, ours are quite small. So you have to you are the emergency response team and you you're kind of it. There's no fire brigade, there's there's no nurses and anything to help the one doctor. So we get to do some advanced medical training, we all do firefighter training, and we do a whole range of Antarctic-specific uh things, which is you know, you talk about building a team, there's nothing like putting them through hard physical kind of and mentally challenging training as a group in a safe environment back in the warmth of Australia, and and to kind of get a sense of who's who and and how that's going to shake out. So that was a great opportunity there. And it was we brought the team together. So by the time we got on the boat in late October and sailed down to Antarctica, we were kind of ready to go and pretty keen on getting to know each other better as the year evolved. And of all the scenarios and all the things we'd we'd talked
Isolation Rules And Healthy Boundaries
David Knoffabout, uh global pandemic was was never on the radar. And so when that happened, it uh certainly changed uh changed things.
Tom MuellerYeah, now you know this is it's kind of an isolation assignment, really similar to what astronauts might feel on the space station, although you've got a you know a much larger population there on at the uh at the uh Davis station. Is uh how much is psychological training and preparation a part of the deployment?
David KnoffYeah, it's quite a big part. So we everyone does a lot of uh screening beforehand, so we we want to make sure we're sending the right people down there who've and it's a fairly mature crowd. So out of the 24 in the wintering group, the the average age was in the low 30s, oldest in their sort of early 50s, youngest sort of high 20s. So they've got a little bit of life experience and they've been through some screening processes for uh physical, uh like medically, they're physically fit, um, and then also mentally and psychologically prepared for the year of isolation. And you you mentioned the similarities with uh the space station. That's something that that comes up quite a bit, is that the closest thing we have to space on earth is is the Antarctic stations. They're the only places left on Earth that in the winter months you'll have at least six or seven months where it's virtually inaccessible. There's a few outliers and times where we've managed to do winter medical rescues and other things, but they're incredibly risky and rare in themselves. So you have that period of isolation through the winter where you may as well be in on a space station. Granted, you can go outside and explore a little bit more. But the challenges there become, and I uh and I know the space station and NASA have these same rules of when you're living and working in the same group, and they have it on a lot of remote communities and mining sites and other things as well, but I think it's not quite to the same level. But you have to be so clear about your boundaries. And what I always find fascinating is everyone develops a really innate ability to switch hats or switch beanies between work me or work you. So, say you and I having a conversation about work things, and we might be completely disagreeing about hey, no, I think we should send the next expedition, the next field trip needs to go to this location, and we'll retrieve this equipment or swap these cameras out or whatever it is we're doing. And you might have a completely different opinion of no, we need to stay on the station, we've got maintenance to do, the maintenance comes first, and then we do the um the science second, and I'll say, no, no, science first, maintenance second, blah, blah, blah. And we might have that disagreement. Half an hour later, you and I'll have to be having dinner together, or we'll be doing something that we've arranged socially. We might have a and then in the winter you do a lot of things like playing chess and cards and ball games and different things, or or gym workouts. You and I might have to switch hats and be friends again because that's our our social interact uh interaction for the day, or that we have a plan. And I find it fascinating that we can just we'll park that other conversation where we completely disagree, sit down, play chess, talk about oh, how's your family? How's life back home? And what's news? Oh, yeah, well thing, and then after lunch uh or after the game of chess, we'll go back to kind of arguing. And it's it's fascinating, but you have to be able to live like that because otherwise, if you let it all, if it's just all work all the time, it it's not sustainable for uh a year. Um, and it's something that I've seen interestingly since since getting back to um the real world since that trip, that that is something that crept far beyond the normal of where it had where it had been, that now into everyday life, work had just become this constant pressure pressure on everyone. Uh, that was one of the bad things that came out of COVID that now, and and here in Australia they've had to legislate kind of the right to disconnect uh for different companies and businesses at times. And I always say that to leaders and and managers, you go, if it's 9 p.m. on a Tuesday night, before you call or message your team, just think, could this wait till you know it might be an early thing tomorrow because it is quite urgent, but you'll be better off rather than sending it because if you've all been there, you get a message or an email at nine o'clock at night, and even if you go, Oh, I'll deal with that tomorrow. The fact that you just went to work for one minute in your brain will like change your your your pattern or your uh your ability to rest and go to sleep that night, rather than if you just got up in the next morning, you check your phone at seven o'clock and go, Oh, that's a bit urgent, better uh better get it straight onto that. You just go and you're straight onto it. And that's something that I've found interesting. So we have very clear rules on the stations that if you're talking work after hours, you've got to at least caveat to say, Hey Tom, do you mind if I ask you a quick work question or how do you want me to handle this? And they'll often just say, Yeah, just put a note on my desk and I'll manage it tomorrow morning. But or it's not critical, or no, that is critical. Let's let's go fix that now.
unknownYeah.
Tom MuellerOkay, so boundaries are a clear issue. And of course, the longer the time you're deployed together, you know, the more important those boundaries become. But now, David, talk to us about, you know, when the word came through to you guys that uh the deployment was going to be extended. First, I'm curious how good were communications between the station and the mainland? And and then what was your reaction and the team's reaction to the news?
David KnoffYeah, so the the communications back in 2020, they were okay. Uh, we did have satellite, internet, and uh Wi-Fi across the station, but it was fairly limited.
The Call That Extends Everything
David KnoffSo if we were going to do a video call uh back to our head office, we'd all have to get in the one room, the the station theater slash briefing room, slash library, the kind of all you know, multi-purpose room, but and then everyone turned off all their other devices so that the Wi-Fi kind of channeled through that one thing. So you could do a video meeting, um, but often it would drop out, it wasn't as good. Since then, we've now we've we've had Starlink and some upgrades to the internet on the station, so it's a lot better. But back in 2020 it was still a little bit clunky. So we found out, so 23rd of June 2020 was when we got the news. So we just celebrated the Midwinter's Day, which is a um really unique tradition on the Antarctic stations. It's you know it's pitch dark outside uh in the depths of the Antarctic winter, and you've got um you know minus 30, minus 40 degree temperatures, it's it's pretty bleak. And we celebrate that with a nice midwinter's dinner. So we we just had that celebration, and then two days later, and you've got to remember this is now two-thirds of the way through our trip, where on day 270, something like that, or whatever. So we're basically thinking we get through midwinter, and a few months from now, the flights are gonna start back to Antarctica and whether we're gonna start going home. Um, by you know, October, November, we we knew we'd be out of there. Yet went into my office, had had a Microsoft Teams meeting with my boss back in Australia, and he he just laid out some pretty cold hard facts around the the logistical ramifications of COVID that had impacted on international shipping. The flights are the contractor flights that we use. We actually use a Canadian company, and all the small aircraft were still in the northern hemisphere that would have during the Arctic summer to get them to Antarctica in time to help move us to our different locations was got to be a challenge because they'd have to quarantine at all the different nations in North, Central, and South America, and it would mean you know those aircraft couldn't get there. Our ship uh were due to get a new icebreaker in 2020 that had been then delayed because of COVID. The dock dockyard had been shut down, it couldn't do its sea trials, it couldn't come and get us. And our fallback is generally to use international shipping to rely on the other national Antarctic programs, be it the French, the Americans, the Japanese. We even worked quite closely with you know Russians and Chinese uh Antarctic programs down there, which is sort of most people a little bit surprised by, but we work quite closely with them because you have to down there, you have to work as a team. Yet in 2020, no one was willing to work as a team. That was it. They were like, well, every nation for themselves, and we were left with out of viable and safe way to get me and the team out of Davis as planned. So it came to the obvious question. I went back to my boss and said, Okay, well, if you're saying we're not going to go home as planned at the end of 2020 at our 12-month mark, well, when do we go home? What's the what's the delta? What's the extension? I'll go tell the team and we can mentally prepare for that. And that was where the true kind of issue came up because he's going, Well, we don't currently know. Um, we're pretty confident we'll get you out in early 2021, which would be a six-month extension. Uh, but we currently don't have a viable plan for that. We're looking at shipping options, we're looking at flight options, we're looking at some contingencies, we think we can help. Well, yeah, maybe this national program might be able to help us or not. And I'm like, so so what do I tell everyone? Like, what do I yeah, what what do I tell them the plan is? And he's like, well, just go and tell them that they're staying at least six months uh and that we'll let them know when there's a plan. I'm like, okay. And walked out of my ended that conversation, walked out of the office and got the team together and had to tell them just that.
Tom MuellerMan, that's a tough conversation. Uh I mean, you're just the messenger in that one, but you're still the leader of the station. And um, you know, the slings and and arrows are gonna come your way. And just the basic questions, you know, wait, what? What's happening? Yeah, so the uncertainty uh that that that brought um and just the extension itself, um, you know, people respond differently to different levels of stress. And in crisis situations, you often see that, you know, right? People who are not well suited to deal with the chaos or uh you know, uncertainty that often accompanies a crisis situation, you know, tend to have difficulty, and that becomes apparent the longer they're engaged in that. So I'm curious, um, David, from the personnel perspective there now, you know, managing people and the psychology of people thinking, oh my gosh, we're gonna be here trapped for who knows how long. What does this mean? So, as a leader, how did you sort of work through that and help people cope with that?
David KnoffIt was
Managing Uncertainty And Group Morale
David Knoffa tricky one. I think there was a bit to unpacking that question. It was the the one saying or the one thing that that did help as a collective was the fact that we were all in the same boat. And I remember you you say like the arrows and mud were gonna come my way, and they certainly did. And that was tough initially because I was sitting there taking questions and kind of accusations of oh, you knew or you do why haven't you done more? And I could very quickly be like, I had no hand in this, and and then and the team knew that, and so that was quite straightforward, and that kind of helped galvanize us as a group to say, well, we're all in the same boat. And I think I remember once saying at one of the team meetings, I'm like, hey, I've been stuffed around by this just as much as all of you, so let's not go saying that I wanted this, um, I'm just having to lean into the problem a bit more, and that was a challenging one that I was always trying to put on a very optimistic, positive spin on it, which at times rubbed a few people the wrong way, they didn't appreciate it, and so there was almost a um a requirement or a healthy amount as a leader to vent your frustration in front of the team so they know okay, he gets it. He's as human and as pissed off as the rest of us at the overall situation, which sort of went contrary to my own instincts. That as a as a leader, and certainly for the military side of things, you shouldn't really do that, or it's it's rare to see it, and it's certainly not encouraged. But it sort of helped me at times to to be a little bit angry at the common enemy of the problem, and that used to be something as well to help keep people on track of they easy to blame the operations manager and the logistics planning team and others, and you kind of go, it's actually not their fault, and they had a lot of other problems to manage the broader Antarctic program, and sort of the we're kicking a lot of cans down the road by not having a summer season and changing the logistics. So I kind of knew that as much as we're we could blame them, they've got their own, they've got multi-year problems to now deal with rather than trying to get us home as as planned. But the one or two members of the team that couldn't quite get on board then started to become a bigger problem as as we went on. And most of the problems didn't come up straight away. So once we told everyone, hey, we're staying a bit longer, we we did our stock takes of food and fuel and and realized we had about two years endurance in total, so we could have stayed at least another 12 months before we started to really have to ration things uh in a in a drastic way. Um, so we sort of had that security of like, all right, well, if it's six or twelve months, we're we're okay. If it's much longer than that, we're we're starting to be in real trouble. But that that security is there, and we came up with a plan so we got everyone together and went through our plan of okay, well, what does the extra six months look like? What would it look like if it is 12 months? How do we manage that pace? And I I like to talk about it as a marathon in terms of if you've run 30 kilometers of your marathon and someone says, Hey, you've actually got to run more, you go, Well, how much more? Your first question is, Well, how long and then how fast do I do I walk? Like, what what I do? So that was our challenge of and we sort of just went all in on like, okay, well, if they've said they're gonna get us out in six months. Um, let's let's basically go all in on that with a few caveats. And strangely, some of the group didn't want to know what the 12-month plan looked like. They wanted to know, like, okay, there is a plan, we've got some food set aside, and we've got some wine and other things set aside that if we have to stay even longer, we do survive. But they didn't necessarily want to know the details of that, so you're like, okay, great, that's not for everyone. Um, but then there was still one or two that just never quite got on board with all of that, and it became you sort of see it initially, and you go, I don't think they're quite as uh optimistic about all this as I want them to be. And then sure enough, and and in the the book that I wrote about the experience, 437 Days of Winter, um, there's one character in that book called Fred, who's actually a combination of of the worst parts of all of us in in some ways, but some of the actions that that he did are based on on um one individual, and it it became this thing, if you just start to see it and you're like, Oh, I think he's uh he's cracking, he's he's not doing that well with all this. And anytime I would we'd try and have a positive spin on it, he'd sort of bring it back to the negative, and you're going, Oh, this isn't going well. But our problem is there wasn't much we the only solution was going to be get him home, and it's the only thing we couldn't do. So everything we tried to you know do get
When One Person Starts To Crack
David Knoffget fo get back to the core business, get focused on like hey, give him some autonomy and ownership. And we did that for everyone, but it became his problem. So but we got to the 12-month mark, and and he really decided that he'd he'd had enough of the whole situation and just prevented it and said, I don't really want to do this anymore. And I was left um with the situation of like, well, well, how do I get a member of the team back into the team when you're living and working on an Antarctic station in the middle of absolutely nowhere? And one member of the group just said, I don't really want to be here and do this anymore. You can work out a way to just you know deal without me. And you go, Well, that's not really an option. Um, so that was probably one of the the trickier and most challenging situations you could ever imagine.
Tom MuellerYeah, did the team sort of come together? I mean, I'm sure people sort of saw this evolving over time and were looking out for each other. Did it um did you get some help with that from other team members, you know, everybody trying to keep him going and and and you know, the the community doing its part?
David KnoffYeah, absolutely. I think that was some of the key lessons out of out of that moment was that myself and his manager on the station, and then the the chef who was my deputy station leader, and the doctor, we were all playing like a key role and kind of managing, and you know, we're the the core of the leadership group. Um, and so we had this role in kind of managing everyone, and we started to spend more and more time worrying about this this guy. But what we realized was actually, whilst we were worrying about it and saw, oh, this is a you know, this is a problem for us to manage, everyone was managing it in in various different ways, and that was something we had to take knowledge of like, okay, this isn't just a management problem formally, it's a group problem more broadly. And they did help, and that was one of the solutions is rather than myself coming in heavy-handed with hey, this is what we're gonna have to do, to this you can't quit and blah blah blah blah blah. Um, other members of the group were were there to help explain why things had gone the way they had and really helped bring him bring him back into the fold. And it took about a week uh using a whole range of different ways to help help him understand the situation and and help come up with a new role for him in the in the group. And we got him back to work eventually and kind of all moved on. But it it strangely again helped bring the group somewhat closer together, and it it realigned a few of the members of the team who were probably the most vocal and and frustrated with the whole situation. They kind of then went, Well, as frustrated as I am, I'm not I'm not going that to that extreme. I still want to be part of the group. I'm just pissed off at the situation. And you go, okay. So it it brought out a lot of emotions that I think were there in all of us. And that was one of the things that with what Fred did, it almost highlighted what at some level we were all thinking, myself included, if we'd all had these daydreams of like, I don't want this is ridiculous, I don't want to do this anymore. This is stupid. I signed up for 12 months. Right. I can't you can't just say oh you're there indefinitely. And it is sort of a weird thing of like it's okay to have those thoughts, and it it's not unusual that someone might act on them, but then you have to go, okay, well, then how do you move on to the next thing and how do you go to the next problem? Um, because you are still here and there's a reality check in there. And I think that's something around like I work now in the you know, doing leadership and management training and resilience coaching and other things, and it's it's a strange one at times for very high-performing uh and professional leaders and and other team members that at a point in your career or a point in any journey, you might have that moment where you do lose it, and you'll you'll feel bad, you'll be overly harsh on yourself, but it's it's very human to have a moment where you you you lash out or you lose it, you throw your toys out of the pram. What becomes then defining will be okay, well, how do you move on? How do you go, okay, that was my low point. I've hit rock bottom. And and there's somewhat of an empowerment in then going, I've hit rock bottom. I've done something that's uncharacteristic, that's not me. I regret it. I know it was stupid, I didn't want to do it, but it's done. I'm going to apologize or I'm going to explain it. And then I'm going to say, right, that was my worst. Now I'm going to give you my best and let's let's go forward from there. So that moment as a group was almost a necessary low point to go, okay, that's that's what that looked like. And then we're able to move forward afterwards and and run to the end.
Tom MuellerOkay, very cool. Well, I worked uh as a public information officer for the Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico back in 2010. And that was, you might recall that that was a a blown-out oil well, right? 5,000 feet below the surface. And it just kept going and going and going, right? So we had this long-running, open-ended crisis. And like you said, we didn't know how long we were going to be out there. It ended up for me being, you know, six months living away from home,
Crisis Parallels And What Comes Next
Tom Muellerworking in crisis mode, and doing that. But going living through that, you kind of see the pressure that people are under, the being away from home, um, the dealing with people that uh maybe you don't always deal with. And there's just lots of challenges or opportunities for personal growth, as I like to call them. And it sounds like you guys had uh an unending supply of those. And that's gonna do it for this episode of the Leading in a Crisis podcast. Join us on our next episode and we'll continue our conversation with David about his experiences leading this team stranded in the Antarctic. If you'd like to drop me a line, you can email the show at Tom at LeadingInacrisis.com. I look forward to hearing from you, and we'll see you on the next episode.
