Welcome And Listener Shout Outs

Tom Mueller 0:06

Hey everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a Crisis Podcast. This podcast we talk all things crisis management and we share stories from the front lines of crisis communications. I'm Tom Mueller. Hey, reminder, if you'd like to email the show, you could drop me a line at Tom at Leadinginacrisis.com, and we would love to hear from you. I want to do a quick shout out to our new listeners from around the world. In the last few weeks, we've added listeners in Brazil, Argentina, Chile, and Vietnam, in addition to our already robust global footprint. So thank you everyone for listening and welcome in. On today's episode, we're going to talk crisis memes and other issues with our guest, Natalee Gibson, who is founder and CEO of Song PR based in Denver, Colorado. Hi, Natalee, and welcome to the show.

Natalee Gibson 1:03

Hi, Tom. Thank you so much for having me.

Tom Mueller 1:06

Hey, take a moment and just introduce yourself for our listeners, if you would.

Natalee Gibson 1:10

Sure. So as you said, I'm the co-founder of Song PR. My other business partner lives in the Bay Area, and we kind of think of our business as headquartered in both the Bay Area and in Colorado, where I am based. But yeah, been doing PR for a very long time, over 25 years now. But I started my career in broadcast journalism. And actually, my education is in journalism and political science. I thought maybe I would go into communications and politics. Long story how I landed into PR, but I have loved it. And to date, we work our within our agency, we work with companies really in the growth stage. So we start with the smallest seed all the way through to exit, largely tech companies, but that, as you know, means everything these days. And within that, um, I really focus a lot on the crisis side. Um it's it's something that I enjoy doing. I love the strategy of PR, the strategy of communications, understanding how to map that to business goals. And uh crisis comes in now in ways that it never used to. So it's a big part of what we do.

Kit Kat Heist Becomes A Meme

Tom Mueller 2:13

Well, and you know, we are crisis right here. So um we're gonna have some fun conversations around that. But, you know, today I wanted to do something a little bit different, um, just because there's been some funny meme things happening out in the world. And, you know, it just seems like memes uh have taken center stage uh in a variety of communications. It's like everybody's a meme generator. You know, the guys in my texting group for motorcycle riding, everybody's got a funny meme, they just gotta share. And uh, but we're seeing it writ large in corporate issues, even around, you know, potentially corporate crises, where companies pile on and have some fun with it. So I want to start with a funny example, uh, Natalee, which was the recent theft of 12 tons of Kit Kat bars that were being trucked from Italy over to Poland. And I've got uh I'm gonna share my screen here. And uh, let's just take a look at some of the memes that we saw here. And for those of you who are just listening to the audio podcast, we're just gonna run through a couple of these memes. We'll describe them. But if you want the full experience, come join us on YouTube. But the first thing we have out here is an official branded statement from Nestle and Kit Kat saying we can confirm that 12 tons of Kit Kat products were stolen while in transit between our factory in central Italy and their destination in Poland. We're working closely with local authorities and supply chain partners to investigate. The good news there are no concerns for consumer safety, and overall supply is not affected. So, Natalee, kind of a good basic crisis statement here, right?

Natalee Gibson 4:07

Yes, yep, but pretty straightforward. Um, I believe it was initially thought to be an April Fool's joke. I think it was right around April Fool's, and the company had to clarify that they were serious with the statement. But yeah, because it's it's not something you typically would see from Kit Kat.

Tom Mueller 4:21

It's you're exactly right. It was April 1st. And so there was a lot of that. Thank you for that reminder. So that was funny, but it wasn't. This was actually a real thing. Well, what happens next? Kit Kat puts out a uh stolen Kit Kat tracker. So they're doing this on X. Uh, you can click on the link and it'll take you to a website. You can look at the back of your Kit Kat bar and find a product number on there, plug it into this uh website, and it will tell you whether or not it's a stolen Kit Kat. Now, I'm betting they didn't get many that turned up stolen from here, but I don't know. I haven't seen any statistics on that. But what's where it got really funny, Natalee, is when other companies started piling on. So we're showing a meme right now from Del Taco, the restaurant chain that says official statement. Del Taco had absolutely nothing to do with this heist. Thank you. And there are chocolatey fingerprints all over the statement. Hmm, there's a clue here. Next, this one really floored me. This is from Dulles Airport in Washington, DC. And there's a picture here of a lovely airport model made out of chocolate, including an air traffic control tower with chocolate bars. And the tech says, We're think of the entire Kit Kat team. Please give them a break during this difficult time. In unrelated news, we'll be swapping out our Lego airport for a candy airport. And they show that. Somebody had to come up with this pretty quickly. You know, I'm impressed with how they did that, Natalee. What do you think?

Natalee Gibson 6:06

Well, thank you to AI, I'm sure, for that image, right? But yeah, it's it's uh it is fun. And I feel like it allows you to exercise some of your like creative and fun and sarcastic things that we don't often get to do in our day-to-day work environment. So these are hilarious. I mean, they're well done.

When Brand Humor Turns Risky

Tom Mueller 6:23

They are hilarious, and you know, it's a little bit risky, but in this context, it you know, it's okay. The next one we're putting up is uh uh a post from Outback Steakhouse that says, our thoughts are with our mates at Kit Kat as they navigate this unexpected and difficult time. In completely unrelated news, introducing the new Bloomin' Kit Kat, just one dollars, while supplies are um abundant. And it shows a picture of a uh what would be a bloomin' onion, but it's actually a bunch of Kit Kats where the Bloomin' onion would be looking delicious and ready to eat. So the OPEX steakhouse guys promoting their bloomin' onion uh as part of this. And finally, we're throwing up a quick meme from McDonald's, France, uh, where they've taken a McDonald's dessert, thrown a Kit Kat label on it, uh, and said they're they're um you know participating in the Kit Kat dessert craze or something. It's in French, so I can't translate that one. But it was um all fun, all well done, and in good cute corporate humor. Natalee, um, you know, it's funny because a lot of us, we sort of have this hidden fun side that we'd really like to get out there and engage. But you know, so often corporate PR just doesn't lend itself to that. So why are these so much fun?

Memes And Public Desensitization

Natalee Gibson 7:59

Well, it's certainly, as I said, it's lighthearted. Um, and and it and it went over well in this case, and that is a lot of fun. But you're right when you said it's risky and there's a lot of risk associated. And I think, you know, in an example like this, um, a big corporation is always uh comfortable, or the the internet, social media consumers are comfortable with it being in the villain role, right? Nobody feels overly bad that something was stolen from them. Although theft is a serious issue, and this ongoing theft of transportation and trucks, that the logistics side of it that Kit Kat was trying to put a spotlight on, it wasn't, it's not just them that this happens to, right? And most companies aren't talking about it. And Kit Kat said, enough, we're gonna say something publicly because this has got to stop. We need to do better. So it was focused on a serious issue, but clearly uh the powers that be that that did all this and kind of the the conversation that dusted up around it um trivialized it. Um and to Kit Kat's, you know, credit, so you know they they took it in the fun as well. Where the risk comes in is what we can't foresee, right? And so if this truck that had been stolen had been used in a crime or had been driven into a public place, you know, then suddenly it's not funny anymore. So companies that have weighed into this in a jokey manner just run the risk of backlash. And the internet, social chatter can be a very fickle place. So you're taking a risk when you do this. Again, this is an example where it was just kind of fun. You know, another example is the Louvre heist, right? That was a very serious robbery, but there was so much humor around the way that it was done that it you lost the seriousness of it. And the internet, I'm gonna just call it the internet, decided that it was just more funny than it was concerning. And that's an example here, too, right? We've just decided that it's more fun. And and to be honest, we need fun. There's too much seriousness, too much hard. So when there's something that we can laugh at and collectively we feel that it's enjoyable and that there's no real harm done, because again, we don't see big corporations as victims rarely, then it feels okay to pile on.

Tom Mueller 10:10

Yeah, that's some really good points there. Because uh the what worries me a little bit about this is just that desensitization that we're we're getting from this. And and I'm all in for the humor. I love it when when companies do that. But we are, you know, we do see it uh, you know, getting a little creepy out there at times uh because you know, in the much more serious context, you know, you're seeing uh nation states putting memes out. Iran, you know, lately has been trolling President Trump and putting out some really creative memes. But you know, doing memes around potentially lethal events just uh doesn't have the same sort of humorous aspects to it that we see from you know these corporate crises like the Kit Kat thing.

Natalee Gibson 11:03

Yeah, and it really desensitizes uh us in general, right? And you're right, it it puts very serious, very sobering, um concerning topics in, and it frames them in a light that just puts a lot of distance between the individual and the actual thing that's happening. Um, you know, I I'm speaking obviously as a US citizen and here in America, a war in Iran is far away from us. We don't necessarily recognize the the grave impacts of daily bombings, um, the loss of life, and all the other things that come along with it. And so we do as a society, we we become very desensitized to it. And that's that has long-lasting concerns, right? That go far above my pay grade and dip into psychologists and all of that. But but you know, it there's a lot of lessons that can be taken from things like that as well. I mean, politics is rife with lessons that corporations can take when it comes to communications and geopolitics and all of that. We we learn a lot from the things that happen in those arenas.

Tom Mueller 12:04

Well, and it, you know, if you're running a PR department in a company or the social media team, you know, this seems like there's a fine line between something maybe being funny and something not, you know, because there's plenty of examples out there where uh, you know, somebody's corporate social media channel poked fun at a celebrity uh or situation that the celebrity actually thought was quite serious and then marshalled their millions of followers uh against the company, right? So it's always, I mean, you always have to be just a little bit nervous about it, don't you?

Burger Wars And CEO Persona

Natalee Gibson 12:46

Well, and you bring up a good point in the sense that we have a very myopic viewpoint of what we see as problematic or humorous or anything, right? I have my own life experience and things that bring, you know, and my career experience. It actually is a really good point for diversity in a workforce or a workplace environment where you have different um viewpoints weighing in on things like this. Uh, people of different ages see things differently, people obviously with different backgrounds and cultures, gender. Um, and I've been in many a meeting where someone has brought something to uh the attention of the group that no one else had thought about. And so, not running, and if we, you know, we could go on and on about examples of companies who have done something too quick or without kind of gut checking it, and and the backlash is swift and extreme and often digs a hole that the brand takes a long time to come out of. So it is really important to think through the various angles of how things might be interpreted and um and and ask yourself, is it worth the risk? And it's a tricky, tricky question today because silence is its own problem as well. Um, you know, it cut uh consumers and and people they expect companies to have personalities. They expect companies and brands that they engage with to uh care about what they care about. Uh so it's a very tight rope that you're that you're having to walk as a brand.

Tom Mueller 14:06

Let me segue away from this for just a second because there's another example that I wanted to talk through with you, Natalee, and that was around um the burger wars. So we have this constantly uh moving burger wars between McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, and others. And there was another funny meme situation that came up there, uh, where the McDonald's CEO was uh, you know, they put a promotional video out of him tasting the new Big Arch burger. And of course, the challenge was he didn't seem all that excited about it after he took a bite of that burger. And of course, critics and the competition jumped all over him for that. So we saw the Burger King CEO out there doing his own TikTok video, taking a big bite of a bacon burger and savoring that. Wendy's CEO the same way, just soaking it up and loving it and poking real fun at their colleague or their competitor over at McDonald's. So another example of you know, taking the opportunity, but here we have CEOs engaged in that behavior, right? So that takes it to kind of a whole different level. And in this case, it worked out well. Uh, you know, it was funny videos and that. But what what's your take on the CEOs being engaged in this? Really humanizes it, I guess.

Natalee Gibson 15:41

Well, it's actually something that we talk about. I talk about this a lot actually with clients, in that the CEO, that personality, again, is really important. And and as I was saying, uh, consumers or your your customers, whoever they are, expect to see a personality from the leadership. Uh, when you're a consumer-facing brand, when you're a global brand like a McDonald's, I mean, let me tell you, if I worked with Burger King or one of the others, that's a no-brainer that you you do something quickly following that. It was, it just lent itself well to being able to put an entirely different spin on your product and the company. And, you know, absolutely, I would have been in that mix. Uh, but when it comes to thinking about, you know, McDonald's, for example, as a follow-through on that, the questions then become is this fun and lighthearted and can we lean in? Or is there a real reputational risk to consider here? And and figuring out where that is. Now, again, you know, this is a simple, and and I think that McDonald's, I'm trying to remember, I read at the time, I think that they had a slight loss in in uh um a slight decrease in sales that resulted from that. But I think, of course, they're McDonald's, they bounced right back, right? Right. Um, but it's a really interesting phenomenon and how quickly something like that can happen. Um, and so it's it's really about what we think about at in a broader sense is not necessarily what's happening um with that particular instance. It's how are we stepping into that wider narrative and what do we want to say? And so, you know, it becomes what do we want our CEO, what kind of CEO do we want to have? Is he a buttoned-up boardroom CEO that's leading a global organization and he's focused on shareholders and or is he um a man of the street type CEO? And there's not necessarily a right or wrong answer, but it's really important to define that personality and then build it. And and you can have, especially in a global company, you can have multiple uh spokespeople who own different personas. And and consumers are are harsh, but they're also quickly to forgive and quickly to move on, right? So um, but but yeah, I mean, to take advantage of a viral moment when you can identify that it doesn't come with massive risk, um absolutely do it. That's my takeaway.

Tom Mueller 17:56

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, when I looked at that, it it it to me it the question that comes up is should somebody have looked at that video or you know, been on the stage with that video and said, No, let's do this.

Natalee Gibson 18:14

Yes, absolutely. The number of times I sit around thinking, where are the PR people? Right. Um, or you know, just even yeah, from from a production value, right? There should have been someone in that room saying, take a big bite, like we're excited, this is a big deal, make it look delicious. Doesn't matter if you get a little bit on your face, like we want to, you know, we want to get into this new burger. So yeah, that was a miss for sure, absolutely.

Tom Mueller 18:38

Yeah, and uh yeah, okay. Well, that's the one that um that that really bothered me about that. But the so if you were standing there, you were coaching McDonald's on this, would you have come back with another video or leaned into that a little bit more, done something different?

Natalee Gibson 18:58

Yeah, I think I would have probably wanted to do something different, right? Because it it looks like a little bit too little, too late, you know. And uh, and I think that um trying to come in and take a big bite. And I know I think he came back and said, like, my mom always taught me not to, you know, take big bites of food when I'm trying to talk. And it's a valid thing. It simply could have been like, I also have to speak as soon as I take a bite. I don't want my mouth full of food. Um, you know, so so it's a valid response, um, but it's also a learning lesson. And I think it would have been fun to, you know, take that burger and have, you know, other people react to it, right? Like, you know, and and maybe like poke fun at the CEO, like, buddy, you really missed out by not taking a big bite of this thing, or, you know, I don't know, coming up with something really fun. Um, but keeping him out of the spotlight, I think is the way to go, just again, to shift that narrative.

Tom Mueller 19:47

You know, one of the things I've been thinking about lately, uh, Natalee, you know, when we get into any kind of crisis situation, one of the most important things we have to do is monitor media, monitor what's happening out there on social media, you know, in our main print publications, online, everybody. But memes to me is a little bit, you know, outside of that normal monitoring protocol. Um, I wonder what's uh how do you build that kind of monitoring into your normal day-to-day media monitoring um protocols there? How would how did you approach that?

Natalee Gibson 20:25

It is uh it's a lot of work to be always available or to be always aware of what's happening, right? Because you do have so many channels where there are conversations happening. And uh inevitably there are things that come up that you don't see coming. So whether you're looking at social platforms, whether you're tracking images, video, uh content, whether you're looking at publications, whether you're looking at um video like broadcast TV or whatever, there's so many things that can be monitored and so many conversations happening all the time. So while we we use tools and we spend a lot of time on it, especially when we know there's an active crisis that we're trying to stay on top of, the broader, more important thing is not necessarily just to kind of monitor for the sake of monitoring, but to see how the conversation and the narrative is shaping. What direction is it going in? Are we seeing red flags pop up? Are things, you know, is the sentiment changing? And if so, how what do we need to do to step into that conversation and try to shift it in a different direction?

Tom Mueller 21:24

Do you feel like there's one tool that does that well? Or do you really have to triangulate in on that? And you know, I think about you know, smaller companies with limited resources. It's like, how many people do you need on a social media team to do this, or how big a contract do you have to have with a meltwater or another monitoring firm to sort of give you the 360 degree picture?

Natalee Gibson 21:53

Yeah, in my experience, I can tell you that no, I don't think any one tool does it all. And um, you know, everyone. Has their opinions on which tools they prefer. In the course of my career, I think I've used all of them. I use multiple of them now. And they have their strengths and they have their weaknesses. And so, and it can get very expensive very quickly, to your point, right? You know, it's expensive to pay for these services. They're they're useful and they they can do some things and they can speed it up a lot faster. But in addition to using all these tools, you have to have the human in the loop element to it because there has to be just good old-fashioned scrolling, Googling all the things that no matter how great of a tool you have, that just doesn't quite capture the same sentiment. And, you know, it is hard. It's hard for companies of all sizes. I've worked with very large corporations who don't have the resources or tools to do this well. It really requires a lot of effort. And so you you kind of pick and choose. Again, like I said, when there's a crisis in play, you really can drill down and know exactly what you're looking for. But with our clients, we do monitoring every single day, crisis or not, right? We are monitoring what's being said about them in the public domain. And we bring to, you know, we track all of it, but we bring to the attention things that are, you know, maybe outliers are important that need to be known immediately. But otherwise, we're keeping track. And that's it's absolutely a necessary part of my job because again, even if it's not crisis-centric, I need to know what that ongoing conversation is about my client. And so that when we're ready to talk about something or when we want to react to something, we already understand what a conversation that's that's out there.

Tom Mueller 23:30

So you've got that that broad context around the client, then so when new ideas come in, you can vet them within that broader context.

Natalee Gibson 23:40

Right, right. Yeah. And you know, example, I have a client who um is is going undergoing through some a long-term crisis. And um that has the the tone of that and the conversation around it has shifted over time as it does to focus on various elements, um, things that are some of the some of its misinformation, some of its misunderstood information. And if you weren't monitoring regularly, daily, you wouldn't recognize that these little kind of side topics are cropping up. You're you're aware of the main topic. But if you aren't doing a lot of social listening and a lot of monitoring of ongoing content that's being published, and we're not talking just journalistic content, right? You've got to think about blogs and substacks, and you've got to think about Reddit. And you just it's Reddit, it's its its own full-time job, quite frankly. Um, and everyone that posts is an expert, so to speak, right? Their opinions can be treated as though they are on par with official statements or with um vetted journalists, right? And so it's a very tricky landscape. And if you're knee deep in a crisis, it's just not something that you can navigate alone.

Tom Mueller 24:56

That's been going on forever since we've had sort of social media, because I remember working a crisis 15 years ago, a very large crisis, and um getting a phone call from a producer at ABC News saying, Hey, we've just heard this from some guy in his basement who posted something on Twitter. And I'm like, You want me to respond to some guy sitting in his mom's basement? Right. You know, and and it's it was it just floored me at that moment because I'm like, what are you, an idiot? Come on, we're serious business here. But the fact is, you know, everybody can be an expert, and you just never know where that little nugget of news might come from. And so they've got nothing to lose by grabbing that and throwing it at you, right? To see what sticks.

Natalee Gibson 25:49

Right. We talk a lot about this in media training too, because we are in such a there's such a um fight for content and for audiences, right? So we we just have seen that, and those of us that have done this a long time, right, have seen this transition happen in real time, where what before used to be vetted, what before used to be fact-checked, often is thrown out quickly because you don't want to be scooped or you need to get that clickbait information. And so a lot of I think crisis management has really shifted in many ways. And one of those ways is to react to a lot of misinformation and have a narrative to correct misinformation, in addition to proactively putting out the correct information or your statement or whatever you want to say, um, because the misinformation can be far louder and far more viral than uh anything that is actually factually correct.

Tom Mueller 26:40

Is that what you'd call rumor control? Basically, being ready to respond.

Natalee Gibson 26:46

Yeah, and it it's it's a tricky business because it can come with a lot of credibility or the feel of a lot of credibility. Um, and and you also have to kind of think through who are um who is behind the messages, you know, what what is their point of view? What you know, who's who's paying for the that content, right? Who's backing it, right? There's there's so much that requires us to be really critical thinkers. And there's too much coming at us to be critically thinking about everything. Um, and so yeah, again, organizations, individuals, companies that find themselves in the midst of serious crises have to think through a lot of that. Um, and that's why the the being proactive. I think there used to be an idea, and and legal would push for this often. I find boards push for this often, right? To be silent, to just be stoic and silent and let it play out. And I think that that is for the most part, almost across the board, an incredibly uh problematic way to approach crises. It's no longer acceptable. Silence is a as um someone else will tell your story if you're not telling it for you.

Social Media Simulations For Training

Tom Mueller 27:58

That's right. Yeah, and it it's such a dangerous strategy, but it's I think still, you know, a lot of people maybe just the gut reaction is let's just hold up on this, let's rein this in and see what happens, and then we'll go. But the story's gonna run uh with or without you. And so, you know, your challenge is to have your voice in there, uh, you know, and bless all the uh communication leads out there who are struggling to make that point with management and get it done. Hey, you you uh brought up an interesting point about the social media um and the training stuff because when we do media training, uh and I do a lot with a company called WPNT Communications, but we have a really good social media simulation tool, right? So when we put people through a crisis exercise, we actually simulate the social media injects and force them to respond to those injects or at least evaluate the social media posts that are happening out there. And we find that's a really effective way to sort of get people's heads in the game. Um, you know, people who might not be in charge of social media monitoring on a day-to-day basis. But in fact, all of us have a role in being aware of what's happening out there and bringing that to play, you know, when things go wrong or when there's a crisis, so we can all share that perspective. But as far as the training goes, we find that's a really cool tool and helpful people.

Natalee Gibson 29:36

Yeah, I love that idea because that's one thing we talk about with clients all the time, right? Is that social media is a conversation. And so often companies treat it like, first of all, resource-wise, they they put very little towards it. And so often it's it's more of a I'm just gonna dump information and walk away, right? And they miss out on that ongoing conversation and then they do, and that is where a lot of the crisis communication unfolds, as you said, because people start, you know, there's commenting and you're not responding, and you're, you know, and and it's it's a it's a big miss, I think I see for a lot of organizations.

Tom Mueller 30:08

It is, but it's you know, I've always wrestled with this because it's just such a huge challenge, you know, how many posts can you respond to? Right? There's so much. So in most cases, social media becomes just a listening tool, right? To hear what's the sentiment out there. Um, and you know, if somebody important is weighing in, we may not respond to them on X or Instagram, but maybe we pick up the phone and call them, right? Or have our government affairs guys call them directly to have that conversation. So it, you know, it's always a real melting pot of how you respond to these um these things.

Natalee Gibson 30:52

Yeah, and if you respond, right? And if you keep comments live, you know, that's another question. We, you know, do we delete things? You know, where where does that come into play? And and every company's appetite for that is different, I find, you know, for for how much risk they're willing to assume.

Tom Mueller 31:07

Well, Natalee, it's been a fun conversation. Any anything else on your mind you want to share with uh with our audience here about crisis or CEO coaching?

Natalee Gibson 31:19

Um, well, I think that um, you know, I'll reiterate something I said earlier, which is that, you know, companies need to think about their persona in the market, right? It's it's no longer um just that you're you can let your brand sort of speak for itself. Uh we expect the leaders of companies to have their own personalities. A lot of times they become central figures themselves. And once you've established a persona, you're what you're doing is building trust. So when crises arise, which they do in all kinds of ways. Side note, I can't tell you the number of companies that I talked to that think, oh, we're not really like, you know, we don't have consumer products or what have you. You know, we're not really facing a lot of crises. And I always tell them, oh, it's just wait. It'll be something you you never saw coming.

Tom Mueller 32:04

Have you ever heard of the KISS Cam?

Natalee Gibson 32:06

Yes, right, exactly. I mean, there's no way that that uh they could have predicted that in a million years. And right, we could we could pontificate for the next hour on all the crises that no one could have predicted, you know? And um, and so that's the world that we live in. And so it's got to, there has got to be a proactive plan. It's not just that we have a crisis plan that sits on a shelf over here and we pick it up when something bad happens. No, no, we need to be thinking proactively about how we're building trust in the in our market, how we created loyalty among our customers, um, how we've stuck to our missions and our values, and how we we demonstrate that publicly so that when something happens, we can leverage those tools in the way that we respond and we already have a trusted source of an audience. And that's something that we work really hard to um to help our clients do, so that, you know, sometimes there are things that happen that are out of everyone's control, and sometimes that story takes on a life of its own that also is out of your control. But what is in your control is is building trust, building credibility, staying the course toward, you know, again, sticking close to what matters to you, your own principles. And and consumers and customers, they see that, they recognize that, and and they're willing to stick with you through the hard things.

Tom Mueller 33:27

All right, well said. Natalee Gibson, thanks for joining us on the show today.

Natalee Gibson 33:32

Thank you so much. It was a fun conversation.

Tom Mueller 33:34

And that's gonna do it for this episode of the Leading in a Crisis Podcast. Thanks for joining us. Again, if you want to email the show, drop me a line at Tom at Leadinginacrisis.com. And we'll see you again soon for another episode. Thank you.