Tom Mueller: 0:08

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Leading in a Crisis podcast. On this podcast, we talk all things crisis management and we'd like to get stories from experienced crisis leaders. I'm Tom Mueller, with me again today, my co-host, mark Mullen. Mark, welcome back.

Marc Mullen: 0:25

Hi Tom.

Tom Mueller: 0:27

And our friend of the podcast and special guest today, destin Singleton, joining us from New Braunfels, texas. Destin, what's going on in your world these days, in your business? What are you focused on?

Destin Singleton: 0:41

Yeah, hi. Thanks guys. So happy to be back on your top rated podcast, so super exciting. So I'm the owner of Emic Communications and I support my clients through crisis and challenge, which you know, and change projects as well. You know I live in Central Texas and we have some stuff happening around here.

Tom Mueller: 1:07

We do. The topic we're going to cover today is the communications and emergency response around the flooding over the 4th of July holiday weekend here in Central Texas. There was a town called Kerrville, Texas, which is about oh 80 miles west of me where I am, and probably about a similar distance, Destin, from where you are. It was a sort of rapidly developing weather system that dumped a lot of rain and caused some significant flash flooding that, as of our recording today, has taken more than 100 lives with dozens still missing. So it was just a horrific flood and, of course, lots of issues around communications around that. So we're going to spend a few minutes just talking that through and get our impressions of how these communications have handled and where it might be done a little better. Destin, I know you've been following this fairly closely. What's your initial response to the communications and press briefings that we've been seeing from local officials?

Destin Singleton: 2:20

Happy to. But first I just want to say how, yeah, this is a horrible, horrible event, and while I don't want to, you know, I want to be sensitive to the fact that people even in my circle have lost loved ones. There are becoming some kind of glaring issues about how communication flowed, you know, among kind of from from different government entities, from federal to local, and so we could talk about those, but also from there's been press conferences, sometimes three a day, sometimes two a day, throughout this event, especially in Kerrville and talking about what happened in Kerr County, from Hunt to Kerrville, and so I wanted to talk a little bit about those press conferences and how those went and how they've evolved over time. So I'm happy to talk through those.

Tom Mueller: 3:19

All right, great Mark, you're kind of watching this from afar over on the west coast of the United States. What impressions have you formed about what you've seen so far?

Marc Mullen: 3:32

First of all, I always will remember trying out for the BP Deepwater Horizon incident right after it started and being struck with how quickly the topic was, the response and the boats, and it was as if everybody had forgotten that people lost their lives in that event and I appreciate it was in particular BP that took efforts to stop everyone from acknowledging the pain of the families.

Marc Mullen: 4:03

I think some of that is just the sheer physics of the response takes over, but what I see playing out in public is we're beginning to have more than one topic for the press conferences and we're beginning to be talking as much about weather, balloons or staffing as we are talking about families and the tragic price that they've paid because of this. I suspect a lot of that is inevitable, but I still am a little bit surprised at where the conversation is going. It's a completely appropriate conversation and it will be replayed and added to in every emergency management agency in the country, but right now it's kind of sticking up and it looks like the kid is elbowing to the front of the room to get more candy.

Tom Mueller: 4:54

Well, yeah, there's definitely that, and you know we're seeing very quickly this pivot toward who's responsible for this right. Why weren't there more warnings responsible for this right? Why weren't there more warnings? Why weren't elected officials more engaged or earlier or issuing more warnings? And that, of course, is something we see in every major incident right, what happened? Why did this happen? And in the press conferences I've watched the spokespersons typically it's been a sheriff's department or a state police spokesperson, you know has said hey, we'll have time to have those conversations. Right now, our effort and this whole group who's in front of you are focused on recovering, rescuing people who are still out there and, you know, bringing closure to families who are looking for their loved ones. That's our focus and to me, that's an entirely appropriate response at this stage. You know we're recording on Monday, after 4th of July, which fell on a Saturday. The event happened on Saturday morning, right?

Destin Singleton: 6:04

Friday morning. Friday morning.

Tom Mueller: 6:06

Friday morning. That's right, friday the 4th yeah.

Destin Singleton: 6:08

So day four.

Tom Mueller: 6:10

So you know, at some point the conversation has to go there and, of course, you have to be ready for that. One of the challenges here is this is a unified command that's running this. So you have city people, county people that's running this. So you have city people, county people, sheriff's department who else was in there? Texas Department of Public Safety, which is state police here, so lots of different people who are having the conversations.

Tom Mueller: 6:36

I guess, when you look at it, there's a lot of potential finger pointing going around between folks at this point.

Tom Mueller: 6:42

You know,D estin, I want to come to you and get your thoughts on that and how you see that. But you know, living here in Central Texas, I got the same flood alerts, destin, that you did about the potential for flooding over the holiday weekend, and the folks over in Kerrville and other parts of the state would have gotten those as well. And you know it's incumbent on each one of us to pay attention to that. When we're made aware of those types of situations, we need to be sky alert and watching for rain and potential issues and have a plan in place, because you just in my mind, I'm never thinking well, if something goes wrong, the county or the city is going to come and tell me and come and get me Right. It just doesn't work that way in most parts of the world, so we have to be prepared and ready to respond and get out of harm's way as much as possible. Destin, what's your take on all that?

Destin Singleton: 7:47

take on all that. Yeah, what I'm thinking about in particular is you know where communication flowed between National Weather Service and then on to state local. You know, however, that those communication lines flow and then, and what actions are taken as a result of those communications that are coming from you know, the intended sender to the intended receiver, and then what happens? We don't have those answers, and that's part of what you're seeing in today's press conference. Actually, there were reporters pushing for information, because it's day four. Right At this point, they're like well, wait, why didn't people know? And so, there, there are those natural questions, However.

Destin Singleton: 8:31

So anyway, we don't have the information to be able to fully analyze what happened from this sender to this receiver, from this sender to this receiver. All of that is subject to the future study. However, the One thing people don't realize is, you know, in an area like Hunt, or even farther west of Hunt, at the beginning of the Guadalupe River, it's about 45 minutes from Kerrville, it's, you know, it's not quick. So if the sheriff was told something in Kerrville, it would take him 45 minutes to get to where he needed to be, so that, is you know, not necessarily ideal.

Destin Singleton: 9:12

Plus, these are regions if you live around here, you know if you go over a hill you probably won't have cellular reception, so your reception does not go through limestone.

Destin Singleton: 9:23

probably don't have cellular access. So then the question is well, why weren't there sirens? Why weren't there other warnings? I live in an area where there are sirens. You live in Wimberley. There are sirens. This area hadn't? There's lots of stories out there. You can go and read about why that may be the case. Cost has been number one and, however, I don't want to go back and look at those things. I'm more interested in the communication aspect. You know what? What happened in that communication line? What was intended and where? Where did it?

Tom Mueller: 9:56

where did it fall? You know, from a crisis planning perspective, you know we often say the worst things happen over a holiday weekend. And here we are again. It's a Fourth of July weekend and it's a major flood, a major incident. What does that tell you about your crisis planning process and just being ready?

Marc Mullen: 10:30

Well, you need to be ready for things to happen in the middle of the night or right in the middle of the holiday, and just Murphy lives, murphy rules, and that's a part of this too. Part of analyzing this whole response was when you peel this down to a meteorological event. This is an incredibly fast developing, powerful and deadly rainfall. It was you plan against possible scenarios and possible occurrences and I think we keep broadening those to be absorbed, that sometimes things may be more secure. But we just have to keep doing that. And there's a point to also knowledge.

Marc Mullen: 11:09

It will always be possible for nature to overwhelm us and we have to not only plan to what we can't handle, because there's a limit on what you can handle, but the question at that point should be and what are we going to do when it exceeds that? And stop thinking about how we can't pave the road with responders. So we've got to begin to deal with the realities of what's going to happen. I mean, up here in the Northwest we deal with earthquakes. We don't have earthquakes until we do, and we don't have volcanoes until they erupt, but at that point it's not a 2.4 earthquake and it's not some steam in the air. So in some cases you have to be ready to manage and really all you have left in a response that's overwhelmed is the communications part. So the real question what are you going to talk about when everybody wants to know who did it? And the answer is nobody did it. Nobody was wrong. But here we are, and that is a peer communication challenge.

Tom Mueller: 12:09

Yeah, well, we have. You know, I'm in Wimberley, Texas here, and in 2015, there was a huge Memorial Day flood that eerily similar to what happened in Kerrville, and we had 12 people died, I think in that flood and we had 12 people died I think in that flood, and it was again middle of the night kind of thing Water, rain, significant rains, upriver and a 40-foot wall of water came through and just washed away homes and it was just horrific. But coming out of that, this community now has a new community radio station that is the go-to source for information on weather events or civil defense emergencies, whatever it might be. So we have that system in place now and they've also put in place a community alert system where, similar to the National Weather Service, sends out an alert about a potential flood warning. Well, the local community does that as well. Now, and Destin, as we go back and look at the communications around Kerrville, it sounds like they're going to be having some of those similar conversations. So what went on here in Wimberley not too long ago?

Destin Singleton: 13:29

Yes, I agree.

Tom Mueller: 13:30

Hey, tell me about you know you've spent a little bit of time now looking at those press conferences and seeing we've had an interesting mix of federal elected officials, state officials, county officials, local officials all in there. That's a lot of bodies to get in front of a microphone. What's your sense of how well that has been choreographed and is it serving the public interest?

Destin Singleton: 14:01

Yes. So, first of all, from a key message standpoint, I think they've done a fantastic job of talking about unity and coordination and, you know, actions that they're taking, their ongoing efforts, keeping the public informed about the latest as far as who has been recovered, that sort of thing. I mean it just just a wonderful. Their messages have been great. Yes, some training could occur to improve how those messages are being shared, but overall just a really good job with those messages. However, it's been interesting to kind of watch.

Destin Singleton: 14:41

There has been multiple levels of press conferences.

Destin Singleton: 14:46

So and remember too that this is like 100 kilometers long response so it's not just Kerrville, it's not just Kerr County there's incident. This incident has affected multiple counties along multiple rivers, so this is more of a linear response, and so, therefore, there's been press conferences that have happened from a statewide level as well as those at the local level, and then you've had federal folks making statements and or joining these other press conferences. My first comment is I haven't noticed a public information officer there to kind of help shepherd these meetings, and it seems to me that they've kind of assigned that role to different people throughout, and so there's really no one to kind of step in if things need to be disrupted or if it needs to be redirected to a different person. That role of the PIO, to me, is super, super important and when you see it done really well, then you see the benefit and I just I see that as missing, Unless you guys have. Hey, let us know. If you've seen it and I just have missed it, please let me know.

Tom Mueller: 15:58

Well, again, when you've got all these different state, local agencies coming together. Each one of them, you know, has their own spokesperson in the room and I think one of the challenges you run into is, you know, people giving up control to one person to sort of run things. But if it's a true unified command setup, then you should have a PIO designated from one of the agencies and they speak and represent all of the agencies. So we'll be watching and see, you know, if there's any more clarity around that, but that certainly would have helped things be a little more cohesive.

Destin Singleton: 16:38

Yes, and someone to act as the emcee. You know, sometimes they seem, you know, to be a little bit confused about who's up next, so that's just helpful.

Tom Mueller: 16:47

Yeah, you know I've watched several of the state press conferences on this, Governor Abbott hosting those. I've been very impressed with the amount of information the governor has at his fingertips and as I watch him delivering these press conferences, he's just very good in these types of emergency situations. He's very empathetic and yet he's just spot on with sharing information and that. So I think that speaks to the organization behind him who's gathering that information, getting him prepped and ready for this, Probably himself as well, asking questions of his team to get the right information. So I've been pretty impressed at the state level with the press conferences. Any thoughts on what you've seen there?

Destin Singleton: 17:38

Yeah, state level have been great, I agree, but in addition to that, there have been state level people joining the press conferences in Kerrville. So there's been multiple levels, as I mentioned. So you've got the state hosting, um, uh, meetings, you've got the local hosting meetings, um, and then um, and then what I've also noticed, um, which has been interesting, is a series of special guests, special guests at press conferences. Okay, so just yesterday, late yesterday, local Senator Ted Cruz came and spoke and he stood right behind whoever was speaking, right in camera level.

Tom Mueller: 18:23

I wonder if that was an accident.

Destin Singleton: 18:26

I don't know, it seemed choreographed from his perspective. He was visible behind every person who spoke at the podium Right. So, strategically or accidentally, there was one of the governor's press conferences early on, I might. I want to say it was on Sunday. There was no update provided and it felt a little strange from an authenticity perspective did not hit for me. There was no update provided. There was nothing about like who you know, how many people have been affected, that sort of thing or what are we doing right now. It was only the White House is very supportive. They're going to give us everything we asked for. The president loves Texas, you know.

Destin Singleton: 19:23

And then Kristi Noem got on and talked about that and there were times too where you could see like the local people kind of looking at her funny based on what she said. So it just felt, especially at the time, that it was very self-serving and I don't I have not talked to people on the ground, but to me, even as a local stakeholder, felt that that was at the wrong time. In addition, I have seen like today there was a game warden that came on and spoke for a little while just giving updates on what the game wardens and what they are doing so. It seems like a series of special guests. I don't dislike it, but I also I'm not sure like what, the what, the what the objectives were.

Tom Mueller: 20:10

Well, yeah, and it could be one of those that, as you know they have less new information to share. There's an opportunity to pull in others to talk about some of the peripheral issues that are happening. You know what's happening with livestock or animals that have been recovered and you know, are they corralling them somewhere to be claimed later or whatever that might be? Well, it's still an ongoing and developing response to this.

Tom Mueller: 20:41

Again, just a tragic, tragic incident that happened here in Texas over the July 4th holiday weekend. Several dozen of the people who were killed were young girls, campers at local Christian summer camps along the river there, iconic summer camp locations and camps with, you know, a hundred year tradition of people coming and enjoying that. And all of that just shattered in, you know, in one night with the huge rainfall that came through there. So it is tragic and we always have to keep that in mind, even as we sort of look to critique the communications response and everything that's happened beyond that. So our hearts certainly go out to all the families. Can you imagine you send your son or your daughter off to summer camp and they just don't come back? It's, you know, it's just horrific.

Destin Singleton: 21:43

It's unthinkable, but unfortunately. Unfortunately. I've thought a lot about it. My kids are heading to camp on Sunday.

Tom Mueller: 21:50

Wow, and are you familiar with the emergency response plan for the camp?

Destin Singleton: 21:55

I am now, and I commend our camp.

Destin Singleton: 21:59

Yes, I'm very familiar and, in fact, one of my daughters is a counselor, so I have actually read up on all of their um, um, emergency response plans. But, um, my daughters will be going to Wimberley um next weekend um to, uh, they're both, you know, early counselors. So, but I, I have been thinking about this a lot, and when one mother experiences something, we all experience it. I guarantee you, and I have broken into sobs a bit over the last few days, but this I also. As I said, they have done a fantastic job. These are hugely difficult circumstances, these flash floods. I think if you're not from here, you don't understand. They happen and then they go away very, very quickly and so, as opposed to you know, living through a hurricane and a hurricane, you know prone area where water sticks around, it's not like that.

Tom Mueller: 22:57

Right, but you have a week long buildup of the storm coming in and preparation time and all of that, and with something like this, it just you don't have it. It's such a compressed thing. Yeah, as you were saying.

Destin Singleton: 23:10

And it's absolutely horrible horrific conditions too for the recovery, rescue and recovery groups. I commend everything they've been doing and the amount of outpouring of support from everyone in Texas and beyond around the world has been amazing and we all are super appreciative.

Tom Mueller: 23:31

We know there's a lot of stress associated with emergency responders going out doing search and rescue. You know they've located dozens of deceased people out along that river now and of course, just that work takes a toll on the responders, as you've mentioned, destin. So I'll just point out that, if you scan back on our previous episodes here on the podcast, we have talked to several people about PTSD as it relates to emergency responders and families that are going through situations like this. So please take a moment, look back and, if this is something you're concerned about, we've got some really interesting episodes that deal with the stress, the post-traumatic stress issues after an event like this. Destin, thanks so much for taking a few minutes to join us for this. Always appreciate hearing your perspective on communications issues here. We're certainly close to home in Central Texas with this one today, so thanks very much again for being with us.

Destin Singleton: 24:39

Thank you.

Tom Mueller: 24:40

And that's going to do it for this episode of the Leading in a Crisis podcast. Thank you so much for taking a few minutes to be with us today. If you'd like to reach out, please drop me an email at tom, at leadinginacrisiscom, and we'll see you on the next episode. Take care.

Marc Mullen: 25:01

Thank you.